DeSantis and his stupid laws

[Strike 3,979]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I wasn’t aware of that. Not really seeing the connection though. 

LOL.  Of course not.  Tim the ignorant.  And not surprised you don't see the analogy between all the examples I've cited. 

[The Real timschochet 2,946]

12 minutes ago, Strike said:

LOL.  Of course not.  Tim the ignorant.  And not surprised you don't see the analogy between all the examples I've cited. 

It’s such a broad argument that it’s meaningless. It’s as if you defended the Dred Scott decision by saying “hey that’s what Supreme Courts do, and unless you criticize every SC decision ever made then you’re a hypocrite!” 
 

This proposed law would be terrible, and it appears to be rather unique in modern times. If it wasn’t unique it would still be terrible. 

[Strike 3,979]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

It’s such a broad argument that it’s meaningless. It’s as if you defended the Dred Scott decision by saying “hey that’s what Supreme Courts do, and unless you criticize every SC decision ever made then you’re a hypocrite!” 
 

This proposed law would be terrible, and it appears to be rather unique in modern times. If it wasn’t unique it would still be terrible. 

No, it's nothing like that, but I'm not surprised you don't get the analogy.  But no, it's not broad at all.  It's about the process being used and how it's been used a million times before.  But, in your eyes, unless it's specifically been used previously to change the curriculum at a school it's not valid.  And, to be clear, neither of us knows if it has.  But I don't have to research that because the process in general has been used.  And you never complained about it before but NOW it's a problem because they're going after something that bothers you.  Well, you're too late dumbass.  The cat was let out of the bag decades ago.

[TimHauck 1,801]

3 hours ago, Strike said:

1)  You keep posting Twitter links.  Don't be @squistion.   If you want me to read a bill, post a link to the bill.

2)  This is a draft.   Final bills are often significantly different than first drafts, especially when they include crazy stuff.

3) Doesn't this just apply to public colleges?  Anyone who doesn't like it can just go to a private college.

4)  Make a point.  Obviously, trying to surmise your point doesn't work since you bit my head off the last time I thought it was pretty obvious what your point was.  Posting links without stating a point is poosey passive aggressive crap. 

Banning gender studies majors smells like government overreach to me, but I can take it or leave it since it’s probably not that valuable for getting a job.

The worst part of the bill IMO is saying they can’t even use public funds to promote diversity, equity and inclusion.  Hopefully that is wording that gets changed.

 

 

 

[jonmx 1,593]

I seriously have gotten to the point where I see the left as full of elitist egotistical morons.  They do not give one crap about real American citizens having their first Amendments rights trampled on every day by a fascist alliance of government and big tech who do an end run around the constitution. 

I am a peon, and yet there are paid government actors on websites like YouTube who troll around and have my posts and thousands like me shawdowbanned.  Google hides websites that don't promote the correct agenda.  The internet is suppose to be a public platform, but yet we have millions of citizens who are having their speech hidden, deleted or banned.  Of course liberals don't care, because unless they threatened to put a bullet in someone's head, their speech is not censored.  And FU to all the liberal idiots who deny this is happening across the board on virtually every major platform minus perhaps Twitter now that Musk has taken over.  

Instead of real 1st Amendment issues, the idiots on the left create some bull crap 'academic freedom' which is complete nonsense as what we are talking about are leftist activists groups who want to brainwash kids with their anti-white/conservative/nuclear family trash.  There is NO right for these groups to be able to stuff their moronic hateful ideas down the throats of our children.  I absolute hate with a passion these moronic liberals and their fascist agenda to take over the minds and bodies of our children.  

[TimHauck 1,801]

10 minutes ago, jonmx said:

I seriously have gotten to the point where I see the left as full of elitist egotistical morons.  They do not give one crap about real American citizens having their first Amendments rights trampled on every day by a fascist alliance of government and big tech who do an end run around the constitution. 

I am a peon, and yet there are paid government actors on websites like YouTube who troll around and have my posts and thousands like me shawdowbanned.  Google hides websites that don't promote the correct agenda.  The internet is suppose to be a public platform, but yet we have millions of citizens who are having their speech hidden, deleted or banned.  Of course liberals don't care, because unless they threatened to put a bullet in someone's head, their speech is not censored.  And FU to all the liberal idiots who deny this is happening across the board on virtually every major platform minus perhaps Twitter now that Musk has taken over.  

Instead of real 1st Amendment issues, the idiots on the left create some bull crap 'academic freedom' which is complete nonsense as what we are talking about are leftist activists groups who want to brainwash kids with their anti-white/conservative/nuclear family trash.  There is NO right for these groups to be able to stuff their moronic hateful ideas down the throats of our children.  I absolute hate with a passion these moronic liberals and their fascist agenda to take over the minds and bodies of our children.  

hope you feel better getting that off your chest 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

How did all these colleges get so racist? Conservatives haven’t been running them. 

[Strike 3,979]

30 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Banning gender studies majors smells like government overreach to me, but I can take it or leave it since it’s probably not that valuable for getting a job.

The worst part of the bill IMO is saying they can’t even use public funds to promote diversity, equity and inclusion.  Hopefully that is wording that gets changed.

 

 

 

See, that sounds like potentially the BEST part of the bill to me.  I don't get why people think colleges should be funding anything that isn't about educating kids to get a job and live life.  Trying to indoctrinate them is beyond the scope of our educational system IMO.  It would also help reduce the cost of higher education.

[jonmx 1,593]

12 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

hope you feel better getting that off your chest 

I will feel better when we get our Consitutional Republic from the bureaucrats and corporate monopolies fascist alliance which is destroying our once great nation.   The people need to reclaim this country rid it of the brainwashed idiots who don't understand what freedom is. 

[TimHauck 1,801]

4 minutes ago, Strike said:

See, that sounds like potentially the BEST part of the bill to me.  I don't get why people think colleges should be funding anything that isn't about educating kids to get a job and live life.  Trying to indoctrinate them is beyond the scope of our educational system IMO.  It would also help reduce the cost of higher education.

LOL, promoting diversity is not indoctrinating them, and doesn't cost much as long as they're not paying huge speaker fees or something like that.

[jonmx 1,593]

7 minutes ago, Strike said:

See, that sounds like potentially the BEST part of the bill to me.  I don't get why people think colleges should be funding anything that isn't about educating kids to get a job and live life.  Trying to indoctrinate them is beyond the scope of our educational system IMO.  It would also help reduce the cost of higher education.

Especially when colleges have over the last decades systematically purge the faculty of all conservative thought and have become an absolute cesspool of leftist ideology.  We must demand our state colleges have real diversity of thoughts and ideas, and not just a rainbow of skin colors all parroting idiotic leftist vomit.  

[TimHauck 1,801]

1 minute ago, jonmx said:

We must demand our state colleges have real diversity of thoughts and ideas, and not just a rainbow of skin colors all parroting idiotic leftist vomit.  

Agree

[Strike 3,979]

4 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

LOL, promoting diversity is not indoctrinating them, and doesn't cost much as long as they're not paying huge speaker fees or something like that.

You haven't justified the reason to have these DEI people.  We should simply be striving for equality and not worry about specifically going after diversity.  It will happen organically if you create equality.  There have been studies done on why the cost of higher education has gone up so much and one of the primary reasons is the explosion of administration positions.  It's crazy how many more people there are administering college there are compared to 25 years ago.  And there's no reason for it.  So I'm in favor of getting rid of any bloat in college to get the cost of college down and restore the focus to where it should be - educating our children so they can get a good job and not be burdened by massive student debt. 

[Voltaire 4,562]

7 minutes ago, jonmx said:

Especially when colleges have over the last decades systematically purge the faculty of all conservative thought and have become an absolute cesspool of leftist ideology.  We must demand our state colleges have real diversity of thoughts and ideas, and not just a rainbow of skin colors all parroting idiotic leftist vomit.  

^^^^^^ This.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

Diversity is working out great.  Kamala, KJP, Buttegieg, that Levine creature.  I can only imagine what’s going on below the surface. 

[TimHauck 1,801]

3 minutes ago, Strike said:

You haven't justified the reason to have these DEI people.  We should simply be striving for equality and not worry about specifically going after diversity.  It will happen organically if you create equality.  There have been studies done on why the cost of higher education has gone up so much and one of the primary reasons is the explosion of administration positions.  It's crazy how many more people there are administering college there are compared to 25 years ago.  And there's no reason for it.  So I'm in favor of getting rid of any bloat in college to get the cost of college down and restore the focus to where it should be - educating our children so they can get a good job and not be burdened by massive student debt. 

I didn't say anything about having a person specifically focused on DEI, I agree that is unnecessary.   But the wording of the bill says they can't use any funds (regardless of source, which I actually didn't notice at first) to do anything that promotes diversity equity and inclusion, even including "campus activities"

[Voltaire 4,562]

22 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

LOL, promoting diversity is not indoctrinating them, and doesn't cost much as long as they're not paying huge speaker fees or something like that.

Diversity is not the problem. People accept diversity.

The problem is that nearly all DEI programs are used to promote racial division where no exists. The DEI person in an institution is invariably an activist who goes around making up DEI problems in order to look productive and justify their job and salary. In fact, quite frequently, they are not necessary, or worse, they are destructive and counterproductive.

DEI coordinator is a job in which far left freaks to bully and harrass their less freaky left wing colleagues.

[dogcows 1,029]

3 hours ago, Voltaire said:

If it’s OK for Stanford to take out Western Civ, then its OK for Florida to take out the trash.

How old are you? They didn’t take the course out. They just stopped requiring it….. in 1988!

You can still take the course. Plus, that decision was made by the university, NOT by the state government.

What is happening in Florida is state-sponsored censorship. If we remove academic freedom from universities, how are we any different than nations like Iran?

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

2 minutes ago, dogcows said:

How old are you? They didn’t take the course out. They just stopped requiring it….. in 1988!

You can still take the course. Plus, that decision was made by the university, NOT by the state government.

What is happening in Florida is state-sponsored censorship. If we remove academic freedom from universities, how are we any different than nations like Iran?

Yup. Just like Iran.

[Voltaire 4,562]

2 minutes ago, dogcows said:

How old are you? They didn’t take the course out. They just stopped requiring it….. in 1988!

You can still take the course. Plus, that decision was made by the university, NOT by the state government.

What is happening in Florida is state-sponsored censorship. If we remove academic freedom from universities, how are we any different than nations like Iran?

Florida is responding to the overreach and the hostile takeover of academia that the far left has inflicted on the mainstream left.

They figure that majoring in getting angry over nothing and constantly inducing artificial rage does not enhance their state.

[jonmx 1,593]

9 minutes ago, dogcows said:

How old are you? They didn’t take the course out. They just stopped requiring it….. in 1988!

You can still take the course. Plus, that decision was made by the university, NOT by the state government.

What is happening in Florida is state-sponsored censorship. If we remove academic freedom from universities, how are we any different than nations like Iran?

You realize state colleges are not individuals.  They are state institutions.  So states are censoring themselves, which they have every right to and arguably even a duty to do so.  They are not censoring citizens.   State and federal employees do not have free speech while they are employed, hence things like the Hatch Act which expressly prohibits political speech.  You arguement is moronic at best.  

[dogcows 1,029]

1 minute ago, Voltaire said:

Florida is responding to the overreach and the hostile takeover of academia that the far left has inflicted on the mainstream left.

They figure that majoring in getting angry over nothing and constantly inducing artificial rage does not enhance their state.

So you are ok with the government taking away academic freedom… if you disagree with what the professors are saying.

That’s not freedom. If your beliefs are so brittle that the only way to protect them is to ban the teaching of opposing viewpoints? You’ve already lost.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

1 minute ago, dogcows said:

So you are ok with the government taking away academic freedom… if you disagree with what the professors are saying.

That’s not freedom. If your beliefs are so brittle that the only way to protect them is to ban the teaching of opposing viewpoints? You’ve already lost.

 Can a professor teach the great replacement theory, if they believe in it? 

[dogcows 1,029]

Just now, jonmx said:

You realize state colleges are not individuals.  They are state institutions.  So states are censoring themselves.  They are not censoring citizens.   State and federal employees do not have free speech while they are employed, hence things like the Hatch Act which actually prohibits it.  You arguement is moronic at best.  

The Hatch act has nothing to do with colleges. It deals specifically with executive branch employees of the federal government. Getting that basic fact wrong is the true definition of moronic.

Academic freedom, even within state colleges and universities, is integral to a free society.

[jerryskids 5,206]

3 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Ha! You will be assimilated! 

I loved the early Borg episodes. But later on they ruined the whole thing. 

Anyhow, I know you’re trying to do the right thing for your children. I profoundly disagree with you about what that right thing is. And I do believe you’re butting your head against a stone wall. 

We've already discussed this:  most kids are woke, or the equivalent of woke in prior generations.  Most of them grow up and eventually realize that the real world doesn't work like a Sesame Street episode and become more conservative.  Some don't.

That being said, I am concerned that, for the first time in history, we are actually empowering them.  For all of history in all cultures the elders of the community mostly ignored the youth because, well, they don't really know anything and certainly don't know what has made that culture successful over time.  But now we are throwing out Chesterton's fence because leftists know better.  It should end well.   

[The Real timschochet 2,946]

3 minutes ago, jonmx said:

.  So states are censoring themselves, which they have every right to 

This is a straw argument which has been made a few times already today. Nobody has argued that Florida hasn’t got the right to do this. Of course they can do most of this proposed law if they choose (again I question the part that attempts to restrict private funding.) 

The question isn’t whether they have the right to do this, it’s whether they should.

[dogcows 1,029]

3 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

 Can a professor teach the great replacement theory, if they believe in it? 

That is for the university/college to decide. Not the politicians. Politicians are far from experts on most subjects taught in universities.

[The Real timschochet 2,946]

1 minute ago, jerryskids said:

We've already discussed this:  most kids are woke, or the equivalent of woke in prior generations.  Most of them grow up and eventually realize that the real world doesn't work like a Sesame Street episode and become more conservative.  Some don't.

That being said, I am concerned that, for the first time in history, we are actually empowering them.  For all of history in all cultures the elders of the community mostly ignored the youth because, well, they don't really know anything and certainly don't know what has made that culture successful over time.  But now we are throwing out Chesterton's fence because leftists know better.  It should end well.   

We’re not empowering them. They’re empowering themselves. Social media has speeded up the process. 
 

And it’s not the first time in history either. In the 1960s young people became politically involved with the Civil Rights movement and the Vietnam war. Since then, until now, they’ve been relatively disinterested. When they are interested they take over. Pluralism at its best. 

[jerryskids 5,206]

Also I disagree with what Florida is trying to do here.  I understand the argument of "hey we are funding this and we don't want to fund XYZ" but it is a clear attempt to stifle alternative viewpoints.  Let people train in gender studies or CRT, then beat them on the merits of your argument.

I'm talking university level, not K-12.

[Strike 3,979]

4 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I didn't say anything about having a person specifically focused on DEI, I agree that is unnecessary.   But the wording of the bill says they can't use any funds (regardless of source, which I actually didn't notice at first) to do anything that promotes diversity equity and inclusion, even including "campus activities"

And?  It's more wasted money.  Train engineers to engineer.  Train accountants to account.  In this day and age, do you really believe most people haven't already formed their opinion re: DEI before they get to college?  IMO that's not what college is for and any money/resources spent on it is wasted. 

[The Real timschochet 2,946]

Just now, jerryskids said:

Also I disagree with what Florida is trying to do here.  I understand the argument of "hey we are funding this and we don't want to fund XYZ" but it is a clear attempt to stifle alternative viewpoints.  Let people train in gender studies or CRT, then beat them on the merits of your argument.

I'm talking university level, not K-12.

Excellent take. I would only differ that AP classes in high school are regarded as college level courses. 
 

But your distinction raises an interesting point. In most of the debates about CRT and gender issues, conservatives have argued that their restrictions were about protecting children; adults were free to do what they want, learn what they want. But now we’re talking about universities, where presumably 99% of the students are adults. Yet the same people seem to be for restrictions. Which begs the question: was this ever about protecting children? Many of us have always doubted that, and this latest bill seems to be ample proof that we were right all along. 

[TimHauck 1,801]

9 minutes ago, Strike said:

And?  It's more wasted money.  Train engineers to engineer.  Train accountants to account.  In this day and age, do you really believe most people haven't already formed their opinion re: DEI before they get to college?  IMO that's not what college is for and any money/resources spent on it is wasted. 

Wait wut?  You're saying most college students won't change their opinions about things? 

College is a great time to talk about DEI because it could be the first time some of them have had much consistent exposure to people of different backgrounds particularly if they come from a relatively homogenous high school (not just talking racial of course)

[The Real timschochet 2,946]

In some ways this bill is proof that the 1619 Project is already winning. Per the Time article, the state would ban any history class that teaches anything contrary to the notion that this nation was founded on the principles of the Declaration of Independence. Obviously even the most basic understanding of history will tell you this is not precisely correct because the original Constitution accepted  slavery and “3/5ths of a human being”, both of which are incompatible with the Declaration. The 1619 Project seeks to explore this contradiction in greater detail. The new bill attempts to put a halt, if it can, to that exploration, but that in itself is an acknowledgment that the exploration is successful. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,657]

The university of Texas system has also dropped all DEI policies. I think it’s the biggest in the country, or it’s one of them. The tide is turning.  

[jerryskids 5,206]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

We’re not empowering them. They’re empowering themselves. Social media has speeded up the process. 
 

And it’s not the first time in history either. In the 1960s young people became politically involved with the Civil Rights movement and the Vietnam war. Since then, until now, they’ve been relatively disinterested. When they are interested they take over. Pluralism at its best. 

Um, yeah we are.  This is 180 degrees from the movements you mentioned, which were exactly what young people have done for all time based on their passion for the movement at hand.  Young people have always cried and complained that <insert cause> isn't FAIR$#@!, and the community elders mostly nodded their heads and ignored them.  Occasionally, slowly, an idea or two would have legs and stick around.  To paraphrase Gordon Gecko, "I look at 100 deals, but I may only do one."  

Social media is certainly a factor, for what that's worth.

[jerryskids 5,206]

22 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Excellent take. I would only differ that AP classes in high school are regarded as college level courses. 
 

But your distinction raises an interesting point. In most of the debates about CRT and gender issues, conservatives have argued that their restrictions were about protecting children; adults were free to do what they want, learn what they want. But now we’re talking about universities, where presumably 99% of the students are adults. Yet the same people seem to be for restrictions. Which begs the question: was this ever about protecting children? Many of us have always doubted that, and this latest bill seems to be ample proof that we were right all along. 

I'm undecided on AP courses but I don't feel like re-litigating that at the moment.

Regarding your second point, I can only speak for myself, but my primary concern in many of these topics is the age-appropriateness of the message.  As I've said numerous times, human children are by far the most "software-driven" creatures on earth, born with these glorious, largely-empty memory banks which are begging to learn what they need to grow, survive, thrive, and propagate the species.  The young need simple messages:  love your country, community, family, and friends; respect your elders; play and learn.  Nuance can be introduced over time.

[Strike 3,979]

27 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Wait wut?  You're saying most college students won't change their opinions about things? 

College is a great time to talk about DEI because it could be the first time some of them have had much consistent exposure to people of different backgrounds particularly if they come from a relatively homogenous high school (not just talking racial of course)

So what?  People learn through living life.  If they came from a homogenous high school they'll be exposed to other cultures/races simply through going to school.  There's no reason for the school to take an active role in it.  That's where the INDOCTRINATION comes from.  Thanks for acknowledging you want that in their curriculum.

[TimHauck 1,801]

13 minutes ago, Strike said:

So what?  People learn through living life.  If they came from a homogenous high school they'll be exposed to other cultures/races simply through going to school.  There's no reason for the school to take an active role in it.  That's where the INDOCTRINATION comes from.  Thanks for acknowledging you want that in their curriculum.

I didn't say I wanted it in the curriculum.  I said "talk about it," which would include things like campus events which Meatball Ron wants to ban.

[Gladiators 1,904]

44 minutes ago, Strike said:

So what?  People learn through living life.  If they came from a homogenous high school they'll be exposed to other cultures/races simply through going to school.  There's no reason for the school to take an active role in it.  That's where the INDOCTRINATION comes from.  Thanks for acknowledging you want that in their curriculum.

Agree 100%

[Voltaire 4,562]

1 hour ago, dogcows said:

So you are ok with the government taking away academic freedom… if you disagree with what the professors are saying.

That’s not freedom. If your beliefs are so brittle that the only way to protect them is to ban the teaching of opposing viewpoints? You’ve already lost.

I say there are plenty of jobs for intersectional Marxist-Leninist Feminist Queer Black Grievance professors in the other 49 states. I'm sure California, New York, and Massachusetts are hiring and would love to have them to help meet their DEI quotas.