What happens after the end of Affirmative Action?

[dogcows 1,030]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I’d like to see a breakdown of Harvard admissions based on class instead of race. I guess rich kids of all races are just smarter. Public high schools vs private would be a good place to start. 

We can do whatever we want to try and balance college admissions, but the root problem is K-12. We’ve recognized since 1954 that “separate but equal” really isn’t equal. But our schools are still mostly segregated (no longer by the law but by the legacy of those laws). Until we find a way to address that, educational disparities will continue. Affirmative action was a relatively easy attempt to try and remedy the problem. Solving the K-12 problem is much harder.

[peenie 1,910]

4 minutes ago, dogcows said:

We can do whatever we want to try and balance college admissions, but the root problem is K-12. We’ve recognized since 1954 that “separate but equal” really isn’t equal. But our schools are still mostly segregated (no longer by the law but by the legacy of those laws). Until we find a way to address that, educational disparities will continue. Affirmative action was a relatively easy attempt to try and remedy the problem. Solving the K-12 problem is much harder.

 

[GutterBoy 2,898]

17 minutes ago, dogcows said:

LOL clearly didn’t even read Peenie’s posts vehemently opposing affirmative action in the first place.

He doesn't even read or try and understand anything, he just blasts his BS ignorant views.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

11 minutes ago, dogcows said:

We can do whatever we want to try and balance college admissions, but the root problem is K-12. We’ve recognized since 1954 that “separate but equal” really isn’t equal. But our schools are still mostly segregated (no longer by the law but by the legacy of those laws). Until we find a way to address that, educational disparities will continue. Affirmative action was a relatively easy attempt to try and remedy the problem. Solving the K-12 problem is much harder.

Yeah but I go by odds. And just based on pure volume, and if admission is indeed merit based, there should be a significant number of kids from public high schools that gain admission to the Ivy League and other top schools. I don’t think that’s the case. So I don’t care to listen to the people that run them crowing about anything being close to fair. Unless you think rich kids are smarter in mass numbers. I don’t. And the public school kids that do get in are most likely from wealthy areas.  

[GutterBoy 2,898]

20 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

It's interesting that I point out that you tell Peenie she should fall in line with the other coloreds and appreciate what daddy whitey is doing for them, and somehow in your mind this makes me a racist.

You're right, this is fun, whee! 

Now you're being a real ass hole.  I never told peenie she should fall in line, never used a racial slur, and never tried to take any credit for anything.  If all you have is lying about what I post, you're gonna continue to look more and more stupid.

Pennie and I are fine, I get where she's coming from, she gets where I'm coming from.  We don't need racists like you coming around here, spewing BS, and trying to cause problems.  Kindly go eat a d1ck.

[iam90sbaby 2,567]

Just now, GutterBoy said:

Now you're being a real ass hole.  I never told peenie she should fall in line, never used a racial slur, and never tried to take any credit for anything.  If all you have is lying about what I post, you're gonna continue to look more and more stupid.

Pennie and I are fine, I get where she's coming from, she gets where I'm coming from.  We don't need racists like you coming around here, spewing BS, and trying to cause problems.  Kindly go eat a d1ck.

It's funny when you guys take peenie seriously and pretend she's actually a real person lol

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,022]

4 hours ago, GutterBoy said:

Now you're being a real ass hole.  I never told peenie she should fall in line, never used a racial slur, and never tried to take any credit for anything.  If all you have is lying about what I post, you're gonna continue to look more and more stupid.

Pennie and I are fine, I get where she's coming from, she gets where I'm coming from.  We don't need racists like you coming around here, spewing BS, and trying to cause problems.  Kindly go eat a d1ck.

Hate to break the news to you, but YOU'RE the racist here, not @jerryskids. 

I get that you lefties like to rewrite history and also accuse others of doing the things that YOU'RE actually doing, but you aren't fooling anyone except your boyfriends Wade Gayrot, Pimpadouche and Dogshiat.

Not only did you implicitly tell Peenie to "get in line", you admonished her for not being in said line, you racist.

[GutterBoy 2,898]

3 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Yeah but I go by odds. And just based on pure volume, and if admission is indeed merit based, there should be a significant number of kids from public high schools that gain admission to the Ivy League and other top schools. I don’t think that’s the case. So I don’t care to listen to the people that run them crowing about anything being close to fair. Unless you think rich kids are smarter in mass numbers. I don’t. And the public school kids that do get in are most likely from wealthy areas.  

You're correct that most of the kids that attend these schools are from rich families, which is why schools used affirmative action.

also one clarification on rich kids being smarter in mass.  Rich kids have more chances to excel in school than poor kids.  They go to better schools, they get tutors, they have more involved parents, usually a stay at home mom, get SAT prep courses, etc.

[GutterBoy 2,898]

2 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Hate to break the news to you, but YOU'RE the racist here, not @jerryskids. 

I get that you lefties like to rewrite history and also accuse others of doing the things that YOU'RE actually doing, but you aren't fooling anyone but your boyfriends Wade Gayrot, Pimpadouche and Dogshiat.

Not only did you implicitly tell Peenie to "get in line", you admonished her for not being said line, you racist.

Stay out of it.  All you do is stir the pot and post about a DNC Glory hole.  You add zero value here and we'd all be better off if you just deleted your account.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

“I can hire one half of the working class to kill the other half”. Jay Gould, financier and railroad businessman 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

12 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

You're correct that most of the kids that attend these schools are from rich families, which is why schools used affirmative action.

also one clarification on rich kids being smarter in mass.  Rich kids have more chances to excel in school than poor kids.  They go to better schools, they get tutors, they have more involved parents, usually a stay at home mom, get SAT prep courses, etc.

Sure. But based on the sheer volume of kids that attend public schools vs private, many more public school kids, from non wealthy areas with great public schools, should be gaining admittance if it is truly anything close to merit based. Plenty of those kids have great grades and great SAT scores. They still aren’t getting in. All four of Al Gores kids went to Harvard. What’s the odds on that? Getting hit by lightning a thousand times? 

[GutterBoy 2,898]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Sure. But based on the sheer volume of kids that attend public schools vs private, many more public school kids, from non wealthy areas with great public schools, should be gaining admittance if it is truly anything close to merit based. Plenty of those kids have great grades and great SAT scores. They still aren’t getting in. 

I agree that it's not wholly merit based, which is why those people that are praising the elimination of aa and a return to merti based decisions are misguided.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

I remember laughing my ass off when Meryl Streep was on a stage and said that her and Viola Davis were both products of public schools. Yeah Meryl, your public school in the richest area in NJ is just like the ones in Newark. GTFO. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

6 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

I agree that it's not wholly merit based, which is why those people that are praising the elimination of aa and a return to merti based decisions are misguided.

I can see cutting a poor black kid that overcame the odds in a shitty public school some slack. But I don’t think the majority of minorities that gain admission to Harvard are coming from those places. I think a lot of them are rich kids as well. What I think is at work  here is that Harvard and others don’t and won’t cut out black students, but if they let the Asians in then the rich white kids will be the ones that get left out. And they cut the checks. You don’t get a tax free 44 billion endowment via merit based admissions.  You get that via donations. 

[dogcows 1,030]

2 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Sure. But based on the sheer volume of kids that attend public schools vs private, many more public school kids, from non wealthy areas with great public schools, should be gaining admittance if it is truly anything close to merit based. Plenty of those kids have great grades and great SAT scores. They still aren’t getting in. All four of Al Gores kids went to Harvard. What’s the odds on that? Getting hit by lightning a thousand times? 

The people who sued against affirmative action would have gotten better results if they sued against the legacy system. Of all the white students at Harvard, almost half (43%) got in through the legacy system. Those slots were denied to more deserving people from all races and backgrounds. The number of black students getting it through AA is a drop in the bucket comparatively.

I get why they did it - they knew it would be hard to win against the legacy system, since discriminating in that way is probably not legally challengeable, as discriminating by race could be.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

6 minutes ago, dogcows said:

The people who sued against affirmative action would have gotten better results if they sued against the legacy system. Of all the white students at Harvard, almost half (43%) got in through the legacy system. Those slots were denied to more deserving people from all races and backgrounds. The number of black students getting it through AA is a drop in the bucket comparatively.

I get why they did it - they knew it would be hard to win against the legacy system, since discriminating in that way is probably not legally challengeable, as discriminating by race could be.

Completely agree. But when the underclass, which is what we are, argue over the racial aspect of this instead of the class aspect, they have successfully moved our eyes off the ball. It’s about up and down, not left and right. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

If the people that are going to attend the best schools are going to run our country, and they do, there’s no denying it, then perhaps the middle and lower classes ought to have more representation in these institutions.  It’s the farm club of our future. 

[GutterBoy 2,898]

5 minutes ago, dogcows said:

The people who sued against affirmative action would have gotten better results if they sued against the legacy system. Of all the white students at Harvard, almost half (43%) got in through the legacy system. Those slots were denied to more deserving people from all races and backgrounds. The number of black students getting it through AA is a drop in the bucket comparatively.

I get why they did it - they knew it would be hard to win against the legacy system, since discriminating in that way is probably not legally challengeable, as discriminating by race could be.

Actually many Asians support aa.  I've read that they were kinda used as pawns in this whole thing to support the white agenda.

[dogcows 1,030]

Just now, GutterBoy said:

Actually many Asians support aa.  I've read that they were kinda used as pawns in this whole thing to support the white agenda.

It’s hard to say. I know quite a few Asian people, and I’d say their support for AA is about the same as the overall population, half for half against. I don’t think this case is a win for Asian students. If black enrollment drops from 6% to 5% and that 1% is Asian instead? Not exactly a huge win. Meanwhile, unqualified white kids are being admitted by the bucketful through the legacy system.

[Ultra Max Power 214]

And what makes a degree from Harvard more desirable than from a place like Iowa State?

[Strike 5,404]

49 minutes ago, peenie said:

 

And I've told you one way to address this repeatedly, and not once have you said "you know that's a great idea."  You acknowledge the concept but blow it off.  

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

6 minutes ago, Ultra Max Power said:

And what makes a degree from Harvard more desirable than from a place like Iowa State?

We have to come to grips with reality. The Ivy League and other elite schools brand is a big sell to the American public, and the institutions are controlled by people from the elite universities. But if the people that attend those institutions don’t come from and represent the majority  of the American people that they will rule, then the interests of the American people are ignored, the interests  of the elites are put in place.  So much of what the American populace actually wants, things as basic as legal immigration, are ignored. Those bad ideas are thrust upon us by our elite class, as they are the ones that derive the direct benefit and don’t suffer the affects.  And they wonder why people say fock it, I’m voting for the guy on that Apprentice show. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

“In every disaster in American history, there always seems to be a man from Harvard in the middle of it” - Thomas Sowell. 

[Ultra Max Power 214]

9 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

We have to come to grips with reality. The Ivy League and other elite schools brand is a big sell to the American public, and the institutions are controlled by people from the elite universities. But if the people that attend those institutions don’t come from and represent the majority  of the American people that they will rule, then the interests of the American people are ignored, the interests  of the elites are put in place.  So much of what the American populace actually wants, things as basic as legal immigration, are ignored. Those bad ideas are thrust upon us by our elite class, as they are the ones that derive the direct benefit and don’t suffer the affects.  And they wonder why people say fock it, I’m voting for the guy on that Apprentice show. 

Its actually a couple fold here.  A Harvard degree puts a person in the Harvard club... like a legacy club.  That club will open plenty of doors down the road and it increases earning potential.  (even if some want to argue against that in the student loan thread).

There is also the quality of education aspect.  You get a better education at Harvard than Iowa St. as the school demands more from students and the curriculum is harder.  This is in part why schools have minimal aptitude scores and GPA requirements.  Students who do not flourish in high school and meet the minimum standards face a much tougher battle once they are promoted to a higher education center without the same fundamentals as their peers.  

[dogcows 1,030]

A suit has now been filed against Harvard’s legacy admissions program.

https://apnews.com/article/legacy-admissions-affirmative-action-colleges-4a4e1191274e91e695e0631ff5156875

Quote

The new complaint, submitted with the Education Department’s Office for Civil Rights, draws on Harvard data that came to light amid the affirmative action case that landed before the Supreme Court. The records revealed that 70% of Harvard’s donor-related and legacy applicants are white, and being a legacy student makes an applicant roughly six times more likely to be admitted.

It draws attention to other colleges that have abandoned the practice amid questions about its fairness, including Amherst College and Johns Hopkins University.

The complaint alleges that Harvard’s legacy preference has nothing to do with merit and takes away slots from qualified students of color. It asks the U.S. Education Department to declare the practice illegal and force Harvard to abandon it as long as the university receives federal funding.

 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

4 minutes ago, dogcows said:

A suit has now been filed against Harvard’s legacy admissions program.

https://apnews.com/article/legacy-admissions-affirmative-action-colleges-4a4e1191274e91e695e0631ff5156875

 

Nice. I wish them luck.  They certainly have a case. 

[Baker Boy 1,694]

2 hours ago, dogcows said:

We can do whatever we want to try and balance college admissions, but the root problem is K-12. We’ve recognized since 1954 that “separate but equal” really isn’t equal. But our schools are still mostly segregated (no longer by the law but by the legacy of those laws). Until we find a way to address that, educational disparities will continue. Affirmative action was a relatively easy attempt to try and remedy the problem. Solving the K-12 problem is much harder.

 

2 hours ago, peenie said:

 

The best answer right now is school choice but both of you voted against it for decades.

why is school choice not an option?

[Patented Phil 1,469]

20 hours ago, GutterBoy said:

Ok, so you're using tweets to prove that I shouldn't believe tweets, got it.

Also I still think it's a bot, or at worse a conservative fake account.  Given there is no internet history for this person at all, and no other similar images, it still seems very fake.

Sooooo, a Conservative created an anti-Conservative account - not for a one-off false flag tweet, but for daily, brutal poundings of Conservative policies.

In all seriousness, you just might be the dumbest person I’ve ever come across. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

One thing I’ll never understand from both sides of the aisle is sticking up for the elites. People on the right defend all the work arounds the rich enjoy when it comes to taxes,  and people on the left accept being ruled by royalty. People are actually defending Hunter Biden.  The embodiment of privilege.  

[Strike 5,404]

Remember all you libs saying we need to get rid of legacy admissions if we're getting rid of affirmative action?   Can you tell Joe Biden this?

https://freebeacon.com/biden-administration/joe-biden-wants-to-crack-down-on-privilege-in-education-he-called-upenns-president-to-get-his-granddaughter-in/?utm_source=actengage&utm_campaign=FreedomMail&utm_medium=email

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,022]

4 hours ago, GutterBoy said:

Stay out of it.  All you do is stir the pot and post about a DNC Glory hole.  You add zero value here and we'd all be better off if you just deleted your account.

Look at this gimp talking to others about "providing no value".

The day you provide value in here will be the FIRST time you provide value.  GTFO, you racist sissy.

[BuckSwope 654]

6 hours ago, Ultra Max Power said:

Do you think blacks are discriminated against by policies or people?  

Odd phrasing.  Policies don't write themselves. 

[BuckSwope 654]

5 hours ago, dogcows said:

We can do whatever we want to try and balance college admissions, but the root problem is K-12. We’ve recognized since 1954 that “separate but equal” really isn’t equal. But our schools are still mostly segregated (no longer by the law but by the legacy of those laws). Until we find a way to address that, educational disparities will continue. Affirmative action was a relatively easy attempt to try and remedy the problem. Solving the K-12 problem is much harder.

It could be also argued that we started off incorrectly from Brown v. Board of Education because a result of that integration of students was that many or most of the black teachers were fired, so the students were put into situations where they weren't wanted and taught by people who didn't want them there.    But your point is a good one that schools still became segregated by other factors.  

[Ultra Max Power 214]

1 hour ago, BuckSwope said:

Odd phrasing.  Policies don't write themselves. 

To phrase it a different way... I was asking someone who has claimed to have witnessed racial discrimination if the discrimination was based on an actual policy or just a racist person. 

If it's a policy, what was it?

[Hardcore troubadour 15,243]

Just now, peenie said:

I want to see how vehemently you all stand behind lawyers wanting to abolish legacy admissions since you all are in favor of merit only students. Let’s see if we get 8 pages of how undeserving legacy kids are, when the majority of them also are admitted when they don’t have the grades or SAT scores. 

Perhaps you should read the thread instead of parachuting in at the end of it. 

[KSB2424 3,148]

Currently watching Hornets vs Spurs Summer League.  All ten starters are African American. You know what?  Don’t care.  You draft, coach and play to win the game.  

Imagine if the NBA had “race quotas” to as @GutterBoy says to “open doors” for others.  

Good grief.   

[seafoam1 2,916]

4 minutes ago, KSB2424 said:

Currently watching Hornets vs Spurs Summer League.  All ten starters are African American. You know what?  Don’t care.  You draft, coach and play to win the game.  

Imagine if the NBA had “race quotas” to as @GutterBoy says to “open doors” for others.  

Good grief.   

The NFL is already fighting hard to have an all black league. They are pushing hard to fill all coaching positions with black people as well as any management positions. They give teams perks for hiring black. 

NBA is already a rich ghetto. Even the white guys in that league speak and act black. 

[Mark Davis 387]

9 hours ago, GutterBoy said:

You're correct that most of the kids that attend these schools are from rich families, which is why schools used affirmative action.

also one clarification on rich kids being smarter in mass.  Rich kids have more chances to excel in school than poor kids.  They go to better schools, they get tutors, they have more involved parents, usually a stay at home mom, get SAT prep courses, etc.

My wife taught in a high poverty school at the start of her career.  She still remembers the couple of parents who were involved and would show up to parent/teacher meetings because there were only a couple.  One in particular had to work nights but they worked out a time to meet up.  Not accidentally, those are among the students she had that are mostly doing well today.  But the vast majority didn't care or in the gentler terms, didn't prioritize their child's education. 

A lot of our problems is we as a society are failing our children in our homes.  We can dump all the money in we want, but the government can't fix bad/absent parents.  And by the same token, it's no surprise our most desirable teachers don't want to teach in schools where those issues are pervasive.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,022]

13 minutes ago, Mark Davis said:

My wife taught in a high poverty school at the start of her career.  She still remembers the couple of parents who were involved and would show up to parent/teacher meetings because there were only a couple.  One in particular had to work nights but they worked out a time to meet up.  Not accidentally, those are among the students she had that are mostly doing well today.  But the vast majority didn't care or in the gentler terms, didn't prioritize their child's education. 

A lot of our problems is we as a society are failing our children in our homes.  We can dump all the money in we want, but the government can't fix bad/absent parents.  And by the same token, it's no surprise our most desirable teachers don't want to teach in schools where those issues are pervasive.

American Left: Good parenting is racist!!!!!

[Mark Davis 387]

5 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

American Left: Good parenting is racist!!!!!

It's impossible for even well meaning folks in society to fix the issues with people who grow up with bad/absent parenting.  We can argue the policies here, funding, etc. and honestly I feel like for the most part everyone even in heated discussions truly want what's best.  Who among us wouldn't want lower crime and poverty?  But lack of stable homes and good parenting breeds those problems and there really isn't anything anyone can do to fix that with governmental policies.  I grew up in a crap school, even though admittedly there are far worse, but I was fortunate enough to have two parents who cared.  My ACT scores also got me a long way in college and at the interview that landed me my first job out of college that score was a heavy part of what the guy who hired me talked about.