The National debt

[The Real timschochet 6,410]

So here are the scary facts that both political parties are ignoring, to our peril: 

1. The current total national debt is 35 trillion dollars. 

2. This amount increases by 1 trillion each year (the deficit.) Sometimes less sometimes more. (Last year it was 1.5 trillion.) 

3. Our interest payments on the debt are a trillion a year. This represents 22% of our total annual government spending (4.5 trillion.) 

4. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have any proposals to alleviate this in the slightest. Both parties propose massive more spending. Republicans propose more tax cuts in addition to the spending so they will actually increase the deficit far more. Democrats propose tax increases but coupled with their spending these will not be enough to significantly address this issue. Both parties seem to want to pretend that this issue doesn’t exist (though conservatives tend to talk about it more, but mainly as a tool to argue against specific liberal spending proposals.) 

5. There will be a point, sometime in the future, when the amount of interest will be large enough to as to create a financial calamity in this country. How big, how catastrophic, nobody knows. But it IS coming at some point. 
 

What to do? 

[TheNewGirl 1,347]

Let's send more money to Ukraine, keep the border open, provide "free" healthcare to immigrants and start outsourcing more of our tech, farming and other companies to other countries. 

And raise our taxes to pay for all of it. 

 

[edjr 6,578]

Quote

In 2023, the United States spent $1.101 trillion on welfare programs

Does anyone have a mirror?

[Beaker15 233]

10 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

So here are the scary facts that both political parties are ignoring, to our peril: 

1. The current total national debt is 35 trillion dollars. 

2. This amount increases by 1 trillion each year (the deficit.) Sometimes less sometimes more. (Last year it was 1.5 trillion.) 

3. Our interest payments on the debt are a trillion a year. This represents 22% of our total annual government spending (4.5 trillion.) 

4. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have any proposals to alleviate this in the slightest. Both parties propose massive more spending. Republicans propose more tax cuts in addition to the spending so they will actually increase the deficit far more. Democrats propose tax increases but coupled with their spending these will not be enough to significantly address this issue. Both parties seem to want to pretend that this issue doesn’t exist (though conservatives tend to talk about it more, but mainly as a tool to argue against specific liberal spending proposals.) 

5. There will be a point, sometime in the future, when the amount of interest will be large enough to as to create a financial calamity in this country. How big, how catastrophic, nobody knows. But it IS coming at some point. 
 

What to do? 

Lies

[Engorgeous George 2,126]

Austerity in all government programs and spending with a mandated balanced budget which means no spending above tax reciepts and the blanced budget would have budgeted contingency funds for emergencies totally 1% of the budget.  Every budget should include 1 % for deficit reduction.  All entitlements would be locked in to increase only 1/2 of COLA for the next ten years at least.  Any new programs would have to include concommitant reductions or elimination of old ones equal to the projected budgetary costs of the new programs.  Federal departmentrs would no longer operate on a use it or lose it budget principle but would instead be graded on thier austerity and their austerity grade would be considered during any future requests for budget increases.  Money returned to the treasury by agencies and departments not spendinbg their entire budget would go I/2 to additional deficit reduction and 1/2 to contingency emergency funds meaning only wars, or natural disasters.    Finally, and this would hurt me and prove very unpopular with the monied classes capital gains would be taxed as basic income. ( I would remove inheritance taxes in all regards).

[edjr 6,578]

7 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

Let's send more money to Ukraine, keep the border open, provide "free" healthcare to immigrants and start outsourcing more of our tech, farming and other companies to other countries. 

And raise our taxes to pay for all of it. 

 

Forget gubment taxes. My in laws who moved to Florida 2 years ago. Their insurance has tripled since they moved there.

it it baked into their mortgage, so that has almost doubled.  

[The Real timschochet 6,410]

Just now, TheNewGirl said:

Let's send more money to Ukraine and just raise our taxes.

Well first off, you picking one issue (money to Ukraine) is a good example of what I described- conservatives using the debt crisis to argue against spending they disapprove of. If you were to argue against ALL spending, or include spending that you do approve of, I’d give you more credit (though it wouldn’t change the insignificance of your point.) 

Second, Ukraine is a particularly bad example to use in this discussion since it involves government spending in our own military-industrial complex- we purchase the weapons from here and send them there. It actually may increase our revenue long term. While there may be very legitimate reasons to oppose our aid to Ukraine, the annual deficit is not one of them. 

Finally raising taxes may not be a good or pleasant idea but it would reduce the deficit (if uncoupled by equal or more spending which is almost always the case.) 

[Tree of Knowledge 1,699]

Sell off California before it falls into the Pacific.  

[The Real timschochet 6,410]

2 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

Austerity in all government programs and spending with a mandated balanced budget which means no spending above tax reciepts and the blanced budget would have budgeted contingency funds for emergencies totally 1% of the budget.  Every budget should include 1 % for deficit reduction.  All entitlements would be locked in to increase only 1/2 of COLA for the next tyen years at least.  Any new programs would have to include concommitant reductions or elimination of old onesequal to the projected budgetary costs of the new programs.  Federal departmentrs would no longer operate on a use it or lose it budget principle but would instead be graded on thier austerity and their austerity grade would be considered during any future requests for budget increases.  Money returned to the treasury by agencies and departments not spendinbg their entire budget would go I/2 to additional deficit reduction and 1/2 to contingency emergency funds meaning only wars, or natural disasters.    Finally, and this would hurt me and prove very unpopular with the monied classes capital gains would be taxed as basic income. ( I would remove inheritance taxes in all regards).

There are numerous problems with this as I’m sure you realize. But the first and most important one is this: whichever political party dares to propose something like this, much less enact it, will be tossed out on their asses in the next election. 

[Engorgeous George 2,126]

10 minutes ago, Tree of Knowledge said:

Sell off California before it falls into the Pacific.  

Have to clean it up first, stage the property, begin by power washing off all the feces and picking up all the trash.

[Strike 5,186]

Spend less than we take in.  Works in my household.  No reason it shouldn't work for our nation.

[Strike 5,186]

Maybe we can get the Feds to call one of those debt relief companies and have them negotiate our debt down like they do with credit card debt.

[The Real timschochet 6,410]

Regarding my last post: can we really blame Donald Trump and Kamala Harris for promising the voters that they won’t cut anything and will increase spending? If they don’t promise this they will lose. We are the ones causing this all to happen. 

[Engorgeous George 2,126]

18 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

There are numerous problems with this as I’m sure you realize. But the first and most important one is this: whichever political party dares to propose something like this, much less enact it, will be tossed out on their asses in the next election. 

Yes, nobody wants adults in charge.  We are living out Alexis de Tocquevilles prediction.  Desperate fools will hope for miracles and panderers will pander to the desperation and ignorance of those fools for the panderers temporary wealth and power.  We are a shortsighted, self-interested and self-defeating lot.

Tough I could not caution all

I still might warn a few

Don't lend your hand

to raise no flag

atop no ship of fools

[Alias Detective 1,389]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Regarding my last post: can we really blame Donald Trump and Kamala Harris for promising the voters that they won’t cut anything and will increase spending? If they don’t promise this they will lose. We are the ones causing this all to happen. 

Who is the "we."  I just want EVERYONE to pay a little something.  Not just 1/2.

[Engorgeous George 2,126]

7 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

There are numerous problems with this as I’m sure you realize. But the first and most important one is this: whichever political party dares to propose something like this, much less enact it, will be tossed out on their asses in the next election. 

Yes, nobody wants adults in charge.  We are living out Alexis de Tocquevilles prediction.  Desperate fools will hope for miracles and panderers will pander to the desperation and ignorance of those fools for the panderers temporary wealth and power.  We are a short0sighted, self-interested and self-defeating lot.

Tough I could not caution all

I still might warn a few

Don't lend your hand

to raise no flag

atop no ship of fools

                -- Robert Hunter

[zsasz 361]

There's an old Vulcan proverb  - Only Nixon Could Go To China.

 

If either side is serious about wrangling in the National Debt....that side needs to first target areas that are part of their political platform/identity.  Until then, it's just all just campaign promises.

[purdygood 334]

10 minutes ago, edjr said:

Forget gubment taxes. My in laws who moved to Florida 2 years ago. Their insurance has tripled since they moved there.

it it baked into their mortgage, so that has almost doubled.  

So Republican policies in Florida are working?

 

Also, who would want to move TO Florida? The humidity  UGH.

[The Real timschochet 6,410]

2 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

Yes, nobody wants adults in charge.  We are living out Alexis de Tocquevilles prediction.  Desperate fools will hope for miracles and panderers will pander to the desperation and ignorance of those fools for the panderers temporary wealth and power.  We are a short0sighted, self-interested and self-defeating lot.

Tough I could not caution all

I still might warn a few

Don't lend your hand

to raise no flag

atop no ship of fools

                -- Robert Hunter

Hunter is a marvelous lyricist one of the best ever. 
But remember that DeTocqueville was ultimately an optimist about this nation- as I am. He believed things would eventually always turn out all right. 

[Engorgeous George 2,126]

6 minutes ago, zsasz said:

There's an old Vulcan proverb  - Only Nixon Could Go To China.

 

If either side is serious about wrangling in the National Debt....that side needs to first target areas that are part of their political platform/identity.  Until then, it's just all just campaign problems.

I thought the proverb was the pointier the ears the bigger the ding-a-ling.

[Engorgeous George 2,126]

21 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Hunter is a marvelous lyricist one of the best ever. 
But remember that DeTocqueville was ultimately an optimist about this nation- as I am. He believed things would eventually always turn out all right. 

DeTocqueville had no way to predict the effects of generations of ignorance breeding a welfare state and selfishness.  He came at a time of expansion and promise and rugged individualism.  I believe now he would be sounding the alarm but would be ignored.  

[edjr 6,578]

4 minutes ago, purdygood said:

So Republican policies in Florida are working?

 

Also, who would want to move TO Florida? The humidity  UGH.

And ripped 2 teenage girls from their home. Now they are both boys  

[edjr 6,578]

4 minutes ago, purdygood said:

So Republican policies in Florida are working?

Pretty sure Democrats control the hurricanes

[Engorgeous George 2,126]

Easy to see why it is I have no political party, no political home.

[Fireballer 2,639]

If a typical American family was in this predicament, what would a keen financial planner advise them to do?

[Hawkeye21 2,381]

19 minutes ago, Engorgeous George said:

Have to clean it up first, stage the property, begin by power washing off all the feces and picking up all the trash.

Bake some cookies so it smells nice too.

[Baker Boy 1,687]

48 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

So here are the scary facts that both political parties are ignoring, to our peril: 

1. The current total national debt is 35 trillion dollars. 

2. This amount increases by 1 trillion each year (the deficit.) Sometimes less sometimes more. (Last year it was 1.5 trillion.) 

3. Our interest payments on the debt are a trillion a year. This represents 22% of our total annual government spending (4.5 trillion.) 

4. Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have any proposals to alleviate this in the slightest. Both parties propose massive more spending. Republicans propose more tax cuts in addition to the spending so they will actually increase the deficit far more. Democrats propose tax increases but coupled with their spending these will not be enough to significantly address this issue. Both parties seem to want to pretend that this issue doesn’t exist (though conservatives tend to talk about it more, but mainly as a tool to argue against specific liberal spending proposals.) 

5. There will be a point, sometime in the future, when the amount of interest will be large enough to as to create a financial calamity in this country. How big, how catastrophic, nobody knows. But it IS coming at some point. 
 

What to do? 

You are about 30 years too late with this one. I can’t believe you are just noticing it now.

The only way to reduce the debt is to reduce government spending, you cannot tax your way out of government debt.

[Hawkeye21 2,381]

1 minute ago, Fireballer said:

If a typical American family was in this predicament, what would a keen financial planner advise them to do?

They would say, "Stop spending so much money, dumb ass!"

[purdygood 334]

Just now, Engorgeous George said:

Easy to see why it is I have no political party, no political home.

same

[5-Points 3,387]

We should definitely continue to pay the Taliban $80 million a week like we've been doing for the last couple of years. 

[Cdub100 3,835]

1. Spend more on social programs.

2. Bring in more illegal aliens who use up those social program resources.

3. Create overburden laws on business in the name of changing the weather.

4. Continue our world welfare program

5. keep borrowing from the Fed

6. Raise the debt limit

7. Continue to allow military contractors to rape us.

8. Continue to outsource jobs

9. More free trade

10. Don't enforce a balanced budget.

[The Real timschochet 6,410]

2 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

 

9. More free trade

Finally a good idea 

[The Real timschochet 6,410]

17 minutes ago, Baker Boy said:

You are about 30 years too late with this one. I can’t believe you are just noticing it now.

The only way to reduce the debt is to reduce government spending, you cannot tax your way out of government debt.

I’ve noticed it my entire life. 

You cannot cut your way out of government debt either. 

[The Real timschochet 6,410]

OK my solution. 
 

1. Continue as we are except try to be thoughtful about it- no major cuts that will kill the economy. No more big tax cuts. 
2. invest heavily in nuclear energy, particularly nuclear fusion. Whatever it takes. 
3. Free trade. No more tariffs. It’s the only way to grow the economy. We need to grow grow grow. 
4 More legal immigrants. Welcome them in as we did at the start of the 20th century. Check them for disease and criminal records but otherwise let them in NO LiMITATIONS. 
 

I suspect some of these ideas won’t be popular….

[Cdub100 3,835]

Nothing can be done short of a reboot of the system. 

Buy Bitcoin 

[purdygood 334]

Just now, Cdub100 said:

Nothing can be done short of a reboot of the system. 

Buy Bitcoin 

You mean buy the fake currency valued in "how many actual dollars it's worth" ?

[Hardcore troubadour 14,928]

After the events in 2020 and thereafter, it should be obvious to anyone that we are in decline. 

[Fnord 2,051]

1 minute ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

After the events in 2020 and thereafter, it should be obvious to anyone that we are in decline. 

It is obvious. Unfortunately, we spend our time slap fighting over who's more at fault while we elect leaders that have zero motivation to change anything. 

[purdygood 334]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

After the events in 2020 and thereafter, it should be obvious to anyone that we are in decline. 

The human species is in decline.  Luckily, we live in America and we are declining a little slower than every other country. (So things are Purdygood)

[Cdub100 3,835]

4 minutes ago, purdygood said:

You mean buy the fake currency valued in "how many actual dollars it's worth" ?

Bitcoin is valued in ALL assets. 

It's cute you thought you had something there.