Montana Brady Manning

[IGotWorms 3,315]

I personally don't care but you'd be a fool to not realize that there's a cloud over TBs head that will always follow him. And it's called getting caught cheating. Twice. Sure TB is great. Maybe the greatest. But he and the pats will always have to drag that those cheating scandal(s) around with them.

Only because of morons like you. Frankly I don't care who you think has a cloud over their head because you're clearly a hypocrite with poor judgment

[edjr 5,564]

It is insane. There are far too many opportunites for a game or a season to turn in the other direction within a given season.

 

Injuries alone are a huge factor that can't be accounted for.

sometimes just ONE play makes a season.

[TD Ryan2 314]

1. Montana

2. Brady

3. P.Manning

4. Elway

5. Marino

6. Favre

7. Young

8. Aikman

9. Kelly

10. Rodgers

 

that's a fine list - honestly - nothing wrong with it at all.

Brady and Rodgers are still active though.

In your opinion, what does Brady have to do to surpass Montana?

And what puts Rodgers in the top 5?

[vuduchile 1,941]

sometimes just ONE play makes a season.

So exactly which play(s) were fixed that allowed the Broncos to beat the Steelers?

 

The Pats?

The Panthers?

 

Which plays during the regular season were fixed to ensure they got a first round bye?

 

Maybe the Bengals and Burfict were in on the Broncos fix so they took out Antonio Brown and almost did the same to Big Ben?

 

This entire theory has more holes than an afternoon off at a hotel with you.

[edjr 5,564]

So exactly which play(s) were fixed that allowed the Broncos to beat the Steelers?

 

 

No No No. Not what I was saying. I am saying it only takes one legit play to make or break a season.

 

David Tyree, Mario Manningham, Wes Welker etc...

[Kanil 519]

As a KC fan Montana's presence here was invaluable and if not for the concussion in the AFC Championship game who knows what might have been.I do know that '94 MNF game in Denver vs. Elway is still one of the greatest games ever played.

[Kanil 519]

And he's looked like garbage in all of those in the last three years. He didn't have it anymore but the NFL found a way to get him a title anyway. Or at least that's the premise of a not-totally absurd conspiracy theory, is all I was really saying

 

Was the garbage year the year he broke every single season QB record and led the highest scoring offense in the history of the nfl? Just checking because I'm unsure.

[edjr 5,564]

 

Was the garbage year the year he broke every single season QB record and led the highest scoring offense in the history of the nfl? Just checking because I'm unsure.

 

and scored 8 in the super bowl

[Kanil 519]

 

and scored 8 in the super bowl

I believe the phrase used was that he looked like garbage all 3 seasons, not SB. Like I said, I can't say who is the GOAT because there are so many other factors in a team sport but the blatant hate from some of the TB fans who cry so hard and lash out against anyone that disagrees is terrible. Worms' comment was stupid so I called him out on it.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

 

Was the garbage year the year he broke every single season QB record and led the highest scoring offense in the history of the nfl? Just checking because I'm unsure.

That was the year he generally did not play well in THE PLAYOFFS and got absolutely rolled by the Seahawks in the Super Bowl, yes.

 

And those regular season stats were very nice but it was just the regular season and those records are marred by his likely HGH use. Not unlike Sammy Sosa or mark McGwire, really.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

I believe the phrase used was that he looked like garbage all 3 seasons

You believe wrong. Go back and read the post I was responding to. He looked like garbage in the playoffs in each of the last three seasons, is what I said.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Peyton has been in three of the past four championship games, including 2 of the last 3 SBs. And he won once. It's called probability.

Bump for Kanil

[tanatastic 2,061]

That was the year he generally did not play well in THE PLAYOFFS and got absolutely rolled by the Seahawks in the Super Bowl, yes.

 

And those regular season stats were very nice but it was just the regular season and those records are marred by his likely HGH use. Not unlike Sammy Sosa or mark McGwire, really.

Sad how far you will go to deflect attention from Bradys scandals. No one outside of patriot nation is docking Peyton any points for this non scandal.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

Sad how far you will go to deflect attention from Bradys scandals. No one outside of patriot nation is docking Peyton any points for this non scandal.

That's the entire point

 

No one *IN* Patriots nation is seriously docking manning for it either but we ARE pointing out the blatant hypocrisy on display by all Brady-haters

[Kanil 519]

Bump for Kanil

I stand corrected. No one can expect me to actually read.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

I stand corrected. No one can expect me to actually read.

[Greedo 13]

Yes, Manning "elevated Denver all by himself"....by being the worst QB in the league this year, and the worst of all time to start a super bowl.

 

And its definitely a huge mark against Brady that unlike Manning and Montana, Brady's franchise has never decided they could replace him with someone better. If he were of Montana or Manning's greatness, he'd have sucked a bit worse.

 

No argument here that Denver's D and special teams won this game - I've watched every Super Bowl since 1979, and Peyton's performance was the worst since probably Grogan against the Bears - but the Bears D was far better than Carolina's D.

 

The replacement argument isn't a great argument because the Pats don't have jack behind Brady - they haven't got a great replacement. Montana had Young, Manning had Luck, and I'll throw in Favre with Rodgers as well. Don't forget, too, that a neck injury meant there was uncertainly regarding if Peyton would ever play again - the Colts had to do something.

[Kopy 491]

1. Montana

2. Brady

3. P.Manning

4. Elway

5. Marino

6. Favre

7. Young

8. Aikman

9. Kelly

10. Rodgers

 

Best QB's ranked for me, in my lifetime (I'm 40). I do not remember Roger Staubach, Unitas, Bradshaw, etc.

 

Rodgers is ranked lower than others based on the fact he's not done yet. The list is is if the world ended today. My criteria is everything. Talent, wins, records, rings....all of it.

How can you omit Warren Moon from being somewheres in a top 10 list?

Especially if it's considered a modern day list like you have here. Say 1980 and on.

[TD Ryan2 314]

How can you omit Warren Moon from being somewheres in a top 10 list?

Especially if it's considered a modern day list like you have here. Say 1980 and on.

pssst. itsatip that BLACK

[KSB2424 3,083]

How can you omit Warren Moon from being somewheres in a top 10 list?

Especially if it's considered a modern day list like you have here. Say 1980 and on.

He was 11th. NFL list. CFL stats and career omitted.

 

Drew Brees 12th.

 

Where would you put Moon? Over who? NFL only.

 

Maybe he's over Kelly and Rodgers. I can agree and live with that.

 

That's about as high as he goes if you ask me. Great QB, nine time pro bowler. But never won anything so that pegs him down a bit. Similar to Marino.

[Gepetto 987]

Kurt Warner has the 3 greatest QB performances in Super Bowl history, including with 2 different teams that he brought back from the dead. If you're going by Super Bowl performances, he's the best ever. Don't let win-loss records skew the analysis.

[cbfalcon 824]

 

No argument here that Denver's D and special teams won this game - I've watched every Super Bowl since 1979, and Peyton's performance was the worst since probably Grogan against the Bears - but the Bears D was far better than Carolina's D.

 

The replacement argument isn't a great argument because the Pats don't have jack behind Brady - they haven't got a great replacement. Montana had Young, Manning had Luck, and I'll throw in Favre with Rodgers as well. Don't forget, too, that a neck injury meant there was uncertainly regarding if Peyton would ever play again - the Colts had to do something.

You misunderstand. I am not giving Brady extra credit for never being replaced. I get it.

 

What i am doing is pointing out how stupid it is for someone to hold it as a negative against Brady because he didn't ever have to win with multiple franchises, like Manning and Montana.

[mighty_thor 115]

Kurt Warner has the 3 greatest QB performances in Super Bowl history, including with 2 different teams that he brought back from the dead. If you're going by Super Bowl performances, he's the best ever. Don't let win-loss records skew the analysis.

You mean he threw for a lot of yards. He didn't play well at all vs New England, throwing a couple of picks, one of which was returned for a TD while the other put them in field goal position.

[Ken8080 6]

You misunderstand. I am not giving Brady extra credit for never being replaced. I get it.

 

What i am doing is pointing out how stupid it is for someone to hold it as a negative against Brady because he didn't ever have to win with multiple franchises, like Manning and Montana.

 

I don't think TB is being penalized for it, just that Manning did it and proved he could. Maybe TB could but he hasn't had to. It's obviously easier to play under the same scheme, same coach and maybe even the same city and set of fans.

[cbfalcon 824]

 

I don't think TB is being penalized for it, just that Manning did it and proved he could. Maybe TB could but he hasn't had to. It's obviously easier to play under the same scheme, same coach and maybe even the same city and set of fans.

If we are comparing the two, and giving Manning extra points for playing for multiple teams, then the relative effect is identical as punishing Brady for sticking with one team.

 

But I guess I could just counter by giving Brady extra credit for proving he can stick with one franchise, whereas Manning and Montana couldn't.

[Kopy 491]

If we are comparing the two, and giving Manning extra points for playing for multiple teams, then the relative effect is identical as punishing Brady for sticking with one team.

But I guess I could just counter by giving Brady extra credit for proving he can stick with one franchise, whereas Manning and Montana couldn't.

I wouldnt really say neither guy couldn't and brady could. Brady hasn't been put in a situation yet that dictated a decision on his part.

Manning was hurt, and the colts had the 1st pick in the draft. A draft that held a qb that potentially comes around once every ten years or so. I think if it was any other year, the colts probably would've stuck with manning.

The same deal with the 49ers. The only difference was young was already on the team.

You can say that farve was in kinda the same situation down in green bay.

When you have luck, young and rodgers nipping on your heels, thats alot different than a cassel, hoyer, mallet or jimmy geronimo.

[Hardcore troubadour 12,647]

Kurt Warner has the 3 greatest QB performances in Super Bowl history, including with 2 different teams that he brought back from the dead. If you're going by Super Bowl performances, he's the best ever. Don't let win-loss records skew the analysis.

????

[cbfalcon 824]

I wouldnt really say neither guy couldn't and brady could. Brady hasn't been put in a situation yet that dictated a decision on his part.

Manning was hurt, and the colts had the 1st pick in the draft. A draft that held a qb that potentially comes around once every ten years or so. I think if it was any other year, the colts probably would've stuck with manning.

The same deal with the 49ers. The only difference was young was already on the team.

You can say that farve was in kinda the same situation down in green bay.

When you have luck, young and rodgers nipping on your heels, thats alot different than a cassel, hoyer, mallet or jimmy geronimo.

You are missing the point.

 

But for what it's worth, I am 100% confident that any top 5 player of all time at his given position would be able to succeed for a second team. It's a given in my mind. They don't have to get released for me to have confidence in that.

[drobeski 3,061]

Imagine bradys #s if he played in a dome the majority of his career?

[Mookz 1,287]

 

That's not my point.

 

Personally if I was going through this exercise I would have Tom Brady ranked over Peyton Manning. You get no argument from me.

 

My point was that a lot of people put TO MUCH emphasis on Super Bowl rings without any context or nuance. Does the exact number of rings matter? Of course but its not the end all be all people say it is. Football is the ultimate team sport for crying out loud.

 

Tom Brady's first SuperBowl he threw for what 140 yards?

 

We can't give Brady all the credit on that one and somehow try to write off Manning's last one as if it shouldn't count is my point.

 

Let's be consistent. And being consistent I think Brady > Manning. But its close and both are on the Mt. Passmore of QB's.

 

Fixed

[SUXBNME 1,335]

you may be right.

but Young simply does not have the longevity - the TB years and then the years on the bench behind Montana - Young had 7 or 8 full seasons as a starting QB?

Not saying Young wasn't great - a smart pocket passer with great mobility - but when discussing GOAT, longevity and career stats have to be factored in (I think).

I agree 100% on the bolded.

I just throw out Young whenever I can in these discussions. Partially because I hate Montana, but mostly because I want to remind people how incredible Young was for his limited time.

I grew up a Raider fan, so I HATE SF with a passion, but I sure loved watching Steve. Go figure

[Gepetto 987]

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/super-bowl/leaders.htm

 

I guess it is yards for Kurt Warner in Super Bowls with top 3 most yards passing.

 

Look at this on Peyton Manning's play last Sunday though: http://m.nydailynews.com/sports/football/peyton-manning-super-bowl-performance-worst-article-1.2524194

[tanatastic 2,061]

That's the entire point

No one *IN* Patriots nation is seriously docking manning for it either but we ARE pointing out the blatant hypocrisy on display by all Brady-haters

You mean how other qbs get slaps on the wrist but if Brady picks his nose the wrong way in a game people will say he's sending secret stolen signals via satellite to Bills iPad and dock him a ring?

[TD Ryan2 314]

OK - so I've given this some thought and I understand that those who don't unconditionally think Brady is GOAT are not just haters. It's very similar to the Montana / Marino days... that debate was constant and it wasn't until after Montana retired and we reflected on his career that he became almost universally regarded as GOAT.

 

And what I'm getting at is I just don't think that there will be a full appreciation and recognition of Brady (outside of NE) until after it's all over and time has passed. I don't really think he can do anything right now to change people's minds - it's all too polarizing and fresh and people are simply entrenched in their opinions and many of those opinions are emotionally fueled.

 

Exhibit A: KSB (an excellent and well respected poster around here).

I would rank them as follows (Superbowl Era):

1. Montana
2. Brady
3. Elway
4. Favre
5. Marino
6. Manning
7. Young
8. Bradshaw
9. Aikman
10. Kelly

 

In 2008 KSB had Brady as his #2 behind Montana.

Since that time, Brady has piled up wins playoffs, Championships, SuperBowls, records, etc... most significantly another League MVP, SuperBowl MVP, and SuperBowl Title.

 

But today, in this thread, KSB still has Brady as his #2 All-time.

And I'm not suggesting KSB is a hater or malicious or anything like that - I just think he (consciously or subconsciously) has made his mind up and nothing will change it except time away from the topic and the ability to re-evaluate with fresh eyes and opinions.

[IGotWorms 3,315]

I dunno, Montana over Brady is a legitimate position imo. They are both so similar how can you emphatically say one should be over the other? Both had legendary coaches behind them, both won four Super Bowls, both were clutch in the playoffs, both had intangibles out the @sshole.

 

Brady's stats are better but how much of that is a function of the respective eras in which they played?

 

My case for Brady: he's been to two more Super Bowls (just getting there is a huge accomplishment no matter what the mouth breathers say) and he did all of this in the salary cap era. Plus the playoff records.

 

That puts him over the top IMO but if people want to hold on to Montana as a legendary hero from the past I don't think that's absurd.

[Reality 2,710]

OK - so I've given this some thought and I understand that those who don't unconditionally think Brady is GOAT are not just haters. It's very similar to the Montana / Marino days... that debate was constant and it wasn't until after Montana retired and we reflected on his career that he became almost universally regarded as GOAT.

 

And what I'm getting at is I just don't think that there will be a full appreciation and recognition of Brady (outside of NE) until after it's all over and time has passed. I don't really think he can do anything right now to change people's minds - it's all too polarizing and fresh and people are simply entrenched in their opinions and many of those opinions are emotionally fueled.

 

Exhibit A: KSB (an excellent and well respected poster around here).

 

In 2008 KSB had Brady as his #2 behind Montana.

Since that time, Brady has piled up wins playoffs, Championships, SuperBowls, records, etc... most significantly another League MVP, SuperBowl MVP, and SuperBowl Title.

 

But today, in this thread, KSB still has Brady as his #2 All-time.

And I'm not suggesting KSB is a hater or malicious or anything like that - I just think he (consciously or subconsciously) has made his mind up and nothing will change it except time away from the topic and the ability to re-evaluate with fresh eyes and opinions.

 

Cool buddy, I'll still take Montana.

[TD Ryan2 314]

I dunno, Montana over Brady is a legitimate position imo. They are both so similar how can you emphatically say one should be over the other? Both had legendary coaches behind them, both won four Super Bowls, both were clutch in the playoffs, both had intangibles out the @sshole.

 

Brady's stats are better but how much of that is a function of the respective eras in which they played?

 

My case for Brady: he's been to two more Super Bowls (just getting there is a huge accomplishment no matter what the mouth breathers say) and he did all of this in the salary cap era. Plus the playoff records.

 

That puts him over the top IMO but if people want to hold on to Montana as a legendary hero from the past I don't think that's absurd.

 

fair enough - but I'll ask again, what must Brady do to surpass Montana?

and don't get me wrong, I have no problem with those that choose Montana - I don't agree but I understand and it is not outrageous or inflammatory to have that opinion.

 

To me, the only real arguments against Brady are the "physical" or ":athletic" ones - there have been many QBs who were WAY more athletic than Brady - run faster, throw further, bigger, stronger, etc. Brady has physical limitations. Back in the Montana days, someone would always bring up Randall Cunningham and Young's mobility made him a trendy pick over Joe too and it was a given that Marino's "quick" release and passing ability was better then Montana's.

And that's why I think, that someday, an even more "perfect" QB may come along to dethrone them all - a la Michael Jordan ot Bird/Magic.

[FeelingMN 273]

 

Exhibit A: KSB (an excellent and well respected poster around here).

 

 

 

 

 

In 2008 KSB had Brady as his #2 behind Montana.

Since that time, Brady has piled up wins playoffs, Championships, SuperBowls, records, etc... most significantly another League MVP, SuperBowl MVP, and SuperBowl Title.

 

But today, in this thread, KSB still has Brady as his #2 All-time.

And I'm not suggesting KSB is a hater or malicious or anything like that - I just think he (consciously or subconsciously) has made his mind up and nothing will change it except time away from the topic and the ability to re-evaluate with fresh eyes and opinions.

Are you really digging up 8 year old posts to try and get some sort of consistency about sports opinions?

 

[TD Ryan2 314]

Are you really digging up 8 year old posts to try and get some sort of consistency about sports opinions?

 

we could go back even further if you like... Brady's been an elite QB since the internet was invented and you guys haven't stopped talking about him.

 

the search bar is not that hard to use, it's all there and very easy to find.

[edjr 5,564]

 

fair enough - but I'll ask again, what must Brady do to surpass Montana?

 

The people that say Montana today, nothing. He can do nothing to pass Montana, ever.