Saudi Golf Tour

[TimmySmith 2,782]

10 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

I blame the PGA for bitching this. Handled it totally wrong. Took the stubborn holier than thou route. 

It was 100% the PGA who said you're either in or out.

Also it was 100% the PGA PC woke crowd that pushed Trump away from the PGA for no good reason. That was no small event in this saga. Trump was huge PGA supporter, and now thr LIV wouldn't exist without him.

[Fumbleweed 543]

11 hours ago, Cruzer said:

So you’re not really into golf, you’re into big name stars? 

Not true at all. I think you know me better than that. Wonder summed it up very well. The deep divide/fracture in the game is difficult to stomach for me. You do you. Hold whatever view you like. But, I love golf and I’m surprised you would call that into question. I certainly wouldn’t call your love of golf into question no matter your view on all of this. 

[Fumbleweed 543]

1 hour ago, TimmySmith said:

It was 100% the PGA who said you're either in or out.

Also it was 100% the PGA PC woke crowd that pushed Trump away from the PGA for no good reason. That was no small event in this saga. Trump was huge PGA supporter, and now thr LIV wouldn't exist without him.

On your first point, I disagree. Plenty of employers don’t want their employees working for rival entities. 
As for your second point, I think you’re spot on. 

[Bert 1,128]

The true face of LIV.

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34262418/sergio-garcia-intends-quit-dp-world-tour-says-not-feeling-loved-joining-liv-golf-series

 

Waaaaaaaaaa  Mommy and Daddy didn't show me enough love.  Boo Hoo. These people are being mean to me.  They won't let me do what I want to do. I'm gonna take my clubs and go home!

 

Go away you under achieving fock.  Join the worlds greatest under achievers Norman, Michelson and Johnson, whatever, just STFU and go away you spoiled POS Euro trash.  

[TimmySmith 2,782]

14 minutes ago, Bert said:

The true face of LIV.

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/34262418/sergio-garcia-intends-quit-dp-world-tour-says-not-feeling-loved-joining-liv-golf-series

 

Waaaaaaaaaa  Mommy and Daddy didn't show me enough love.  Boo Hoo. These people are being mean to me.  They won't let me do what I want to do. I'm gonna take my clubs and go home!

 

Go away you under achieving fock.  Join the worlds greatest under achievers Norman, Michelson and Johnson, whatever, just STFU and go away you spoiled POS Euro trash.  

How many majors = overachiever?   

[Bert 1,128]

Just now, TimmySmith said:

How many majors = overachiever?   

Simpleton.  Spanish focktard and the scum bag Norman have the same number of majors as Spieth but they act like they were elite golfers.  

As for Michelson, he was supremely talented and should have won many more majors.  He should have been close to Tiger but he didn't want to work.  He was more focused on gambling, drinking, womanizing and generally being a douche bag.  Wasting his Talent was a big reason Tiger didn't like Michelson.    

[TimmySmith 2,782]

9 minutes ago, Bert said:

Simpleton.  Spanish focktard and the scum bag Norman have the same number of majors as Spieth but they act like they were elite golfers.  

As for Michelson, he was supremely talented and should have won many more majors.  He should have been close to Tiger but he didn't want to work.  He was more focused on gambling, drinking, womanizing and generally being a douche bag.  Wasting his Talent was a big reason Tiger didn't like Michelson.    

I think we all hope someday that Spieth is elite.  

[Bert 1,128]

Just now, TimmySmith said:

I think we all hope someday that Spieth is elite.  

Never going to happen but at least he won't act like Serge, the guppy and man boobs.  

[WhiteWonder 2,723]

20 minutes ago, Bert said:

Simpleton.  Spanish focktard and the scum bag Norman have the same number of majors as Spieth but they act like they were elite golfers.  

As for Michelson, he was supremely talented and should have won many more majors.  He should have been close to Tiger but he didn't want to work.  He was more focused on gambling, drinking, womanizing and generally being a douche bag.  Wasting his Talent was a big reason Tiger didn't like Michelson.    

Regardless of how many majors they had, yes, they were elite golfers. There are more factors to being an elite golfer than simply majors. Greg Norman was inducted into the world golf hall of fame in 2001 . He had the longest stretch as world number 1 before Tiger and continues to hold the #2 spot. He tried to create a new golf league many years ago, without any Saudi backing and the PGA squashed it. Now he is a scumbag .

 

I won't try and pretend that Mickelson worked as hard as Tiger. Very few, if any worked as hard as Tiger... but if your claim is that Mickelson was too busy gambling, drinking, womanizing, and generally being a d bag.... Are we just flat out ignoring Tiger's actual womanizing sex addiction that lead to divorce? His substance abuse, DUI and stint in rehab? 

[WhiteWonder 2,723]

2 hours ago, Fumbleweed said:

On your first point, I disagree. Plenty of employers don’t want their employees working for rival entities. 
As for your second point, I think you’re spot on. 

Yes, but arnt PGA pros considered more on the side of independent contractors? I mean, they are not salaried employees. So while the PGA can ban them, it's more a statement move than any actual measure of consequence. 

I'm not surprised, I would never expect the PGA to be like "yeah sure go take a contract with LIV and you can still come play in PGA events when you want"... but that's why I think the proper move would have been to redesign their structure and contract their players (along with some other changes of course). 

[Bert 1,128]

10 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

I won't try and pretend that Mickelson worked as hard as Tiger. Very few, if any worked as hard as Tiger... but if your claim is that Mickelson was too busy gambling, drinking, womanizing, and generally being a d bag.... Are we just flat out ignoring Tiger's actual womanizing sex addiction that lead to divorce? His substance abuse, DUI and stint in rehab? 

So do we call Norman a choker? 

No, I'm not ignoring that at all.  But those things were not Tiger's primary focus.  His focus was golf as most golfers.  Mickelson is a lot like DJ only DJ isn't pretending to be something he is not.  

[WhiteWonder 2,723]

23 minutes ago, Bert said:

So do we call Norman a choker? 

No, I'm not ignoring that at all.  But those things were not Tiger's primary focus.  His focus was golf as most golfers.  Mickelson is a lot like DJ only DJ isn't pretending to be something he is not.  

 

Norman certainly choked on more than one occasion. He was also on the wrong end of some of the most incredible, low probability golf shots of all time taking him down. Larry Mize, Bob Tway.

I don't think there is any way to prove that gambling was Phils primary focus over golf. I don't even know where you get the drinking and womanizing from? Are there documented issues of that or are we just assuming they go hand in hand with being a star golfer who gambles a lot? I also don't think there is any way that Tiger's demons didn't take away from his golf. He was just so amazingly talented, he could hide it. Actually, we could say there is tangible evidence it took away from his golf considering it directly caused him a lot of missed time. 

Phil was married with kids pretty early on in his career. DJ was more tabloid style with Paulina, party boats, vacations... had kids.. not married at the time. I don't really see many comparisons between the two. Even personality wise, DJ is a quiet, awe shucks, kind of guy. Phil is always analyzing, loves the science of golf, almost in a Bryson nerd kind of way.  

[listen2me 23 1,850]

I have been patiently waiting all morning for Cruz to come in and tell us about the Gentlemen Golfers of Leith.  

Starting to get discouraged over here. 

[Reality 3,121]

Was wondering when they'd start poaching analysts. Good place to start.

 

[TimmySmith 2,782]

Every champion golfer has missed opportunities at other championships.  Look at Rory yesterday, is he a choker?  Norman certainly had more than great opportunities that he missed, still elite of elites.

[edjr 6,580]

22 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

Every champion golfer has missed opportunities at other championships.  Look at Rory yesterday, is he a choker?  

100% he is. Look at the 2011 Masters.  Ouch,. 

After Rory holed that bunker shot on Saturday he wilted. 

he 2 putted every single green on Sunday.  

 

[WhiteWonder 2,723]

19 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

Every champion golfer has missed opportunities at other championships.  Look at Rory yesterday, is he a choker?  Norman certainly had more than great opportunities that he missed, still elite of elites.

Exactly. Although 1996 was a choke job by Norman.  (he was my favorite golfer and why I got into golf), but it's true.

[supermike80 1,887]

1 hour ago, WhiteWonder said:

Exactly. Although 1996 was a choke job by Norman.  (he was my favorite golfer and why I got into golf), but it's true.

I loved Norman too..Plus Payne.   Probably top 2 golfers when I was a kid

[listen2me 23 1,850]

26 minutes ago, supermike80 said:

I loved Norman too..Plus Payne.   Probably top 2 golfers when I was a kid

My first memories of golf were watching Payne Stewart and that era with my dad.  He would bet me who would win the hole seemingly to keep my interest in watching it.  I would always pick Payne because I was 6 and thought his clothes were goofy.  Easily recognizable I suppose.  So I guess I could say Payne was my first favorite golfer.  But I grew up pretty precisely in the Tiger Era.  So that soon changed.  

[Cruzer 1,995]

15 hours ago, Fumbleweed said:

Not true at all. I think you know me better than that. Wonder summed it up very well. The deep divide/fracture in the game is difficult to stomach for me. You do you. Hold whatever view you like. But, I love golf and I’m surprised you would call that into question. I certainly wouldn’t call your love of golf into question no matter your view on all of this. 

I was not calling anything into question. I was genuinely curious on your take, which is why I asked. 

I keep hearing all these golf nut purists talk about how they're done (or just about done) if anymore big names defect to LIV... My question is..........why? The Masters, the PGA, the US Open and the Open will still be there. Memorial, the Player's, WGCs, all still be there. I'm a golf nerd, if it's JT Potson and Joel Dahem battling down the stretch at Augusta - I'm watching.

The game itself is not fractured, at least not on the PGA and DP Tours. Purses (seemingly overnight) have exploded with new found wealth, schedules have been revamped and more events created/featured. If anything both tours are expanding, flourishing in fact. Life for a PGA touring pro has never been more lucrative. 

[Cruzer 1,995]

12 hours ago, listen2me 23 said:

I have been patiently waiting all morning for Cruz to come in and tell us about the Gentlemen Golfers of Leith.  

Starting to get discouraged over here. 

Aw I'm sorry. You'll be ok. 

[Cruzer 1,995]

11 hours ago, TimmySmith said:

Every champion golfer has missed opportunities at other championships.  Look at Rory yesterday, is he a choker?  Norman certainly had more than great opportunities that he missed, still elite of elites.

Rory didn't choke yesterday, nor would I call him a chronic choker.

But he's also for damn sure not a closer either. To not have won a major during the last 8 years, in the middle of his prime, is unconscionable. 

[WhiteWonder 2,723]

7 hours ago, Cruzer said:

I was not calling anything into question. I was genuinely curious on your take, which is why I asked. 

I keep hearing all these golf nut purists talk about how they're done (or just about done) if anymore big names defect to LIV... My question is..........why? The Masters, the PGA, the US Open and the Open will still be there. Memorial, the Player's, WGCs, all still be there. I'm a golf nerd, if it's JT Potson and Joel Dahem battling down the stretch at Augusta - I'm watching.

The game itself is not fractured, at least not on the PGA and DP Tours. Purses (seemingly overnight) have exploded with new found wealth, schedules have been revamped and more events created/featured. If anything both tours are expanding, flourishing in fact. Life for a PGA touring pro has never been more lucrative. 

I hear what you're saying and I cant really speak for Fumble but I think his take is similar to mine.

We want to see the best in the sport all competing against each other as often as possible. The NFL, NBA, MLB, racing, tennis, damn near every other sport has almost all of the top players competing against each other in some fashion. Golf may get that for the majors but only if OWR points don't dry up. 

So as much as I love golf and as much as i'll still watch, it will be a bummer to watch... lets say The Players... at 50 or 60% of its potential talent pool. Great for the Joel Dahmen's and JT Postons of the world and for the lower level guys who will have more opportunities now but as a selfish golf fan I still want to see all the best playing in the same field. It's not a crazy complaint.... but I do understand that there is also a sentiment that if you love golf, you should still enjoy the PGA regardless.

[Cruzer 1,995]

43 minutes ago, WhiteWonder said:

We want to see the best in the sport all competing against each other as often as possible.

Of course, as do I - who doesn't? 

But all these golf 'purists', leaving the game/PGA Tour bcoz they don't get the big names facing off in majors, big events - that I don't get. Again, are you into golf, or celebrity names? If you don't still get the top players, that turns you away? I don't get it. 

Then again you're talking to a guy who runs tape on damn near every event. From the big boys, the LPGA, Champions Tour, college golf, US Amateurs, hell even celebrity chartiy events. As one who is about watching legit golf, I'm not going anywhere. If it's Harris English and C.T. Pan in the final group at the Memorial, I'm watching. 

If it's star power these defectors want, ha - there's the LIV Tour. 

[remote controller 143]

Interesting rumor about Barkley.  Not only might he join, he might also stay on with TNT and the Saudi's pay them to broadcast their Tourney's.

[WhiteWonder 2,723]

2 hours ago, Cruzer said:

Of course, as do I - who doesn't? 

But all these golf 'purists', leaving the game/PGA Tour bcoz they don't get the big names facing off in majors, big events - that I don't get. Again, are you into golf, or celebrity names? If you don't still get the top players, that turns you away? I don't get it. 

Then again you're talking to a guy who runs tape on damn near every event. From the big boys, the LPGA, Champions Tour, college golf, US Amateurs, hell even celebrity chartiy events. As one who is about watching legit golf, I'm not going anywhere. If it's Harris English and C.T. Pan in the final group at the Memorial, I'm watching. 

If it's star power these defectors want, ha - there's the LIV Tour. 

"Into golf or celebrity names" is a little over the top. It's not about celebrity names, its about talent. It's undeniable that some talent has already left and more talent will follow. Much of that talent will be better and more entertaining than Harrish English and CT Pan.  Even though I would gladly watch and enjoy those two facing off at the memorial. 

Yes... not having all the top players turns me off. Not away, but its undeniably a turn off.... and this is coming from someone who is fully on board with what is happening because of the change it will spark. However, I think my ultimate wish is that the PGA's hand is forced and LIV winds up as just another in the group with PGA and DP.

I for one, will still watch. I'm not close to being "done"... but I'm also willing to admit it loses some luster in my eyes. Then again I'm not watching as much golf as you apparently are. I am also someone who will tune into LIV. I'm curious to see it in its full form next season when they have a more set roster with the full 14 events and static teams. 

[KSB2424 3,148]

Cash grab, I don’t “blame” anyone for doing it. 

However this is not a competing tour, it’s not a true “Capitalist” free market contest of which tour is better.

An American Tour cannot compete “money-wise” with a Government backed Saudi Tour.  And the whole set up with teams and 54 holes and no cut and “salaries” larger than the prize money is just silly.  

Everyone get paid, then when this folds 5 years from now, maybe we’ll let you back.  Whatever.  

[WhiteWonder 2,723]

8 minutes ago, KSB2424 said:

Cash grab, I don’t “blame” anyone for doing it. 

However this is not a competing tour, it’s not a true “Capitalist” free market contest of which tour is better.   

Golfers get to choose to stay or go to LIV... Next year we will get to see how the LIV product compares. 

An American Tour cannot compete “money-wise” with a Government backed Saudi Tour.  And the whole set up with teams and 54 holes and no cut and “salaries” larger than the prize money is just silly.  

PGA has deeper pockets than they wanted everyone to believe, and I don't doubt for a second that they have additional access to more financial backing. 54 holes, no cuts with a team aspect is only silly because you are used to it not being any other way. I'm not saying I love 54 holes. With smaller fields, I do like no cuts. I see no reason the lower end pros should have to make a cut to get paid.  Guys like Rory, Scottie, Colin, JT, Jordan, etc etc are already getting sponsorship money larger than the prize money . PGA players have already fought for more money in the past or done things like shown their seasons ended after the Majors... so the PGA starts the FedEx cup to get them to dance for a possible 10 million. 

Everyone get paid, then when this folds 5 years from now, maybe we’ll let you back.  Whatever.  

Could be the case. Might even be probable.  BUT, after those 5 years, the PGA will have already made so many changes that LIV golf will have made a lasting impact on the structure of professional golf. 

 

[listen2me 23 1,850]

2 hours ago, WhiteWonder said:

"Into golf or celebrity names" is a little over the top. It's not about celebrity names, its about talent. It's undeniable that some talent has already left and more talent will follow. Much of that talent will be better and more entertaining than Harrish English and CT Pan.  Even though I would gladly watch and enjoy those two facing off at the memorial. 

Yes... not having all the top players turns me off. Not away, but its undeniably a turn off.... and this is coming from someone who is fully on board with what is happening because of the change it will spark. However, I think my ultimate wish is that the PGA's hand is forced and LIV winds up as just another in the group with PGA and DP.

I for one, will still watch. I'm not close to being "done"... but I'm also willing to admit it loses some luster in my eyes. Then again I'm not watching as much golf as you apparently are. I am also someone who will tune into LIV. I'm curious to see it in its full form next season when they have a more set roster with the full 14 events and static teams. 

Lol don't give in to Cruzers golf elitist attitude.    You are spot on.  I will still watch JT Poston and CT Pan duel for a Green Jacket as well.   But anyone acting like losing top players doesn't diminish the product is lying or just full of themselves.    Cruzer watches tape on the local member guest.  Good for him.  Just because others aren't that over the top he thinks he is so above everyone that he calls them out for not being that into golf.   

Lmao.  Cruzer seems like a good guy for sure.  But my God I laugh at his snobby golf elitist attitude in literally every golf thread.  

[edjr 6,580]

2 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

Lol don't give in to Cruzers golf elitist attitude.    You are spot on.  I will still watch JT Poston and CT Pan duel for a Green Jacket as well.   But anyone acting like losing top players doesn't diminish the product is lying or just full of themselves.    Cruzer watches tape on the local member guest.  Good for him.  Just because others aren't that over the top he thinks he is so above everyone that he calls them out for not being that into golf.   

Lmao.  Cruzer seems like a good guy for sure.  But my God I laugh at his snobby golf elitist attitude in literally every golf thread.  

Question. When you watch a tournament with Spieth, McIlroy, Woods et all. Who do the networks show you shots of? Jt Poston and CT Bedpan? Only if they are in the lead or hole a shot or hit a long birdie. The networks are the ones to blame for.

[Fumbleweed 543]

14 hours ago, Cruzer said:

I was not calling anything into question. I was genuinely curious on your take, which is why I asked. 

I keep hearing all these golf nut purists talk about how they're done (or just about done) if anymore big names defect to LIV... My question is..........why? The Masters, the PGA, the US Open and the Open will still be there. Memorial, the Player's, WGCs, all still be there. I'm a golf nerd, if it's JT Potson and Joel Dahem battling down the stretch at Augusta - I'm watching.

The game itself is not fractured, at least not on the PGA and DP Tours. Purses (seemingly overnight) have exploded with new found wealth, schedules have been revamped and more events created/featured. If anything both tours are expanding, flourishing in fact. Life for a PGA touring pro has never been more lucrative. 

Admittedly, I do not like change. Much of my feelings about all of this stems from that. I like golf the way it is right now...or the way it was prior to all of this. Do I think there's room for new developments in golf? Yes. But, not like this. Norman is not hell-bent on improving golf. He's hell-bent on wreaking havoc to golf and has been for quite some time. 

[Fireballer 2,641]

Brandel and  Norman trading barbs again

 

[Fireballer 2,641]

Stenson loses RC captaincy.

[edjr 6,580]

Stenson spits in the face of Ryder cup  

[KSB2424 3,148]

6 hours ago, edjr said:

Stenson spits in the face of Ryder cup  

 

[KSB2424 3,148]

Ernie Els:  "You can’t have a 48-man tour playing no-cut golf and expect the world to take you seriously."

[WhiteWonder 2,723]

2 hours ago, KSB2424 said:

Ernie Els:  "You can’t have a 48-man tour playing no-cut golf and expect the world to take you seriously."

so he signs on.... in March?

[Cruzer 1,995]

On 7/19/2022 at 10:53 AM, WhiteWonder said:

"Into golf or celebrity names" is a little over the top.

Not at all. 

The number of elite athletes, from other sports, who are pretty damn good at golf, is mind blowing. I enjoy watching them as much as anyone really. 

[Cruzer 1,995]

On 7/19/2022 at 2:33 PM, Fumbleweed said:

Admittedly, I do not like change. Much of my feelings about all of this stems from that. I like golf the way it is right now...or the way it was prior to all of this. Do I think there's room for new developments in golf? Yes. But, not like this. Norman is not hell-bent on improving golf. He's hell-bent on wreaking havoc to golf and has been for quite some time. 

Now this makes sense, this is a take that I can understand.. And in that sense I do sympathize with you, and all the rest who share that view. I too am not happy about many of the names I know and love darting for another tour. But they're grown ass men, free to make a living however it is they see fit. 

But I don't blame Greg Norman nor the Saudis. I blame The PGA Tour, Jay-boy and R&A. Phil was dead balls right, right about the way the tour was being run, right about the treasure trove of cash unaccouted for/being withheld. It's a shame it took him and LIV to bring it all out, expose the things going on. And bcoz of Jay-boy's stubborn lack of vision, instead of him ceasing an opportunity to have the big name stars still competing on his tour - he's made LIV even more attractive. 9 billion people on the planet, 20 something professional golf tours around the world - and not room for 1 more? 

How should he have handled it? Not saying this is perfect, but I would have said: 

* PGA Tour players will not be banned from PGA Tour events simply for playing in LIV events. 

* Any Tour players wishing to keep their PGA Tour card must still meet the minimum played events requirement (15). 

* LIV players will not be awarded OWGR points. 

Doing those 3 things keeps all your big names in the majors, WGCs, and The Player's. It keeps you from a mass exodus and maybe most importantly, it keeps you from being investigated by the DOJ and possibly sued. 

[Cruzer 1,995]

Stenson lost over $8m in Allen Stafford's Ponzi scheme, 2010. At the time, it was the majority of his fortune.