Trans Kids

[jerryskids 6,820]

50 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

They don't just give drugs out of hand. They test the things. It's not always foolproof but they are not just giving meds without knowing some idea of the side effects long term. 

Maybe read a science journal once in a while?

My concern isnt that the drugs are going to kill them.  It is that if you stop puberty or worse give opposite hormones during puberty, you can't just stop later and everything is as if you never did it.  Growth and development are forever impacted.  To believe otherwise is beyond comprehension.

[KSB2424 3,148]

33 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

My concern isnt that the drugs are going to kill them.  It is that if you stop puberty or worse give opposite hormones during puberty, you can't just stop later and everything is as if you never did it.  Growth and development are forever impacted.  To believe otherwise is beyond comprehension.

Did you really have to type that?  These people are insane.

I think I typed this in the very first OP:  a person has to go through puberty first….before knowing who they are…….right?  

[Hardcore troubadour 15,482]

3 minutes ago, KSB2424 said:

Did you really have to type that?  These people are insane.

I think I typed this in the very first OP:  a person has to go through puberty first….before knowing who they are…….right?  

Listen, there are so few kids that have taken them. That’s how you know it’s safe 

[KSB2424 3,148]

A child is just that, then LATER they go through full puberty. Extreme bodily and hormone changes.  This doesn’t even account for changes in the brain.  

What The Fock is wrong with some of you?

 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,356]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

My concern isnt that the drugs are going to kill them.  It is that if you stop puberty or worse give opposite hormones during puberty, you can't just stop later and everything is as if you never did it.  Growth and development are forever impacted.  To believe otherwise is beyond comprehension.

You’re wasting your time talking to a person who thinks that preventing someone’s sexual organs from developing is a ok

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

7 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Who did they test them on? How long ago? 

You do know how to use the Internet right?

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

6 hours ago, jerryskids said:

My concern isnt that the drugs are going to kill them.  It is that if you stop puberty or worse give opposite hormones during puberty, you can't just stop later and everything is as if you never did it.  Growth and development are forever impacted.  To believe otherwise is beyond comprehension.

That's a different argument

[jonmx 2,429]

41 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

That's a different argument

Different than than what, your strawman?  The point has always been the permant damage these money hungry butchers are doing to children.  

[jonmx 2,429]

49 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

You do know how to use the Internet right?

There has been no long term testing on these drugs, especially for the current use case.   What limited effects we know about is damage to brain development and early onset of alzheimer in addition to destroying their ability to reproduce.   The few studies which show some marginal mental health benefit are only for a few years and those who continue in their usage.   Those who had bad results and discontinue treatment are not surveyed.   

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

44 minutes ago, jonmx said:

There has been no long term testing on these drugs, especially for the current use case.   What limited effects we know about is damage to brain development and early onset of alzheimer in addition to destroying their ability to reproduce.   The few studies which show some marginal mental health benefit are only for a few years and those who continue in their usage.   Those who had bad results and discontinue treatment are not surveyed.   

So there are some studies that show health benefits and some that do not as we have .02 % of the teen population on puberty blockers. Which further proves it is a fraction of a fraction of people who buy into this stuff yet some of you skyscream here like everyone on the left is rushing out to block puberty in kids. You all are weirdly fixated on other people's kids genitalia. 

Alert the media!

[jonmx 2,429]

7 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

So there are some studies that show health benefits and some that do not as we have .02 % of the teen population on puberty blockers.

Alert the media!

I wish we knew how many kids are on puberty blockers, but I would bet the farm it is a heck of a lot more than 0.02%.  The profits and growth that the groomers brag about at seminars to support over 300 new gender affirming clinics which have popped up in recent years indicate a far greater number.   These drug companies know the exact numbers as do the clinics, but there is no way in hell they will say anything. 

[RLLD 4,239]

I am just grateful that my kids were kids prior to all this normalization of perverts.

But I do worry for my future grandkids. Going to encourage my kids to carefully choose where they decide to live, and assiduously avoid areas where perverts are being elevated.

I recently spent some time in Iceland, you find NONE of this idiotic social work BS there….not will you find it in places like Greece or Italy etc

So leaving the US and becoming an expat should be on that table for them as well

[avoiding injuries 1,589]

9 hours ago, BuckSwope said:

Why would we be just talking elementary kids? 

That last part is a big reason people are against some of the bills being talked that I would guess you support- they also take away access to mental health treatment because it's currently under the realm of gender affirming care.   

I would think people truly trying to help and protect the kids would figure out a way to at least keep that access and block the surgeries and hormones or a way to increase the mental health access in general.  

Just a quick fyi… since I do think it’s a mental disorder, I’m supportive of mental health treatment. I’m not supportive of physical treatment. 

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

29 minutes ago, jonmx said:

I wish we knew how many kids are on puberty blockers, but I would bet the farm it is a heck of a lot more than 0.02%.  The profits and growth that the groomers brag about at seminars to support over 300 new gender affirming clinics which have popped up in recent years indicate a far greater number.   These drug companies know the exact numbers as do the clinics, but there is no way in hell they will say anything. 

From an article discussing a NYTimes piece on puberty blockers:

Quote

There are over 25 million youth between the ages of 12 and 17 in this country. The best estimate of how many children are on puberty blockers, according to a recent Reuters investigation, is roughly 5,000. The percentage of U.S. children from 13 to 17 on puberty blockers for gender dysphoria, therefore, calculates to .02 percent. The Times estimates that 300,000 U.S. youth identify as trans. Five thousand is less than 2 percent of those trans-identifying youth. A much, much higher percentage of youth have been on a diet.

Again- it's a subset of a subset of a population. 

Furthermore, the most commonly prescribed puberty blocker is Lupron which "...has been prescribed for over 30 years, in a variety of medical contexts, to treat both children and adults. In addition to being used for prostate cancer, for endometriosis, and to address the distressing psychological effects of early puberty, it’s used (rarely!) to halt puberty for adolescents experiencing severe gender dysphoria.

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

28 minutes ago, RLLD said:

I am just grateful that my kids were kids prior to all this normalization of perverts.

But I do worry for my future grandkids. Going to encourage my kids to carefully choose where they decide to live, and assiduously avoid areas where perverts are being elevated.

I recently spent some time in Iceland, you find NONE of this idiotic social work BS there….not will you find it in places like Greece or Italy etc

So leaving the US and becoming an expat should be on that table for them as well

I think something to note is- an older generation almost always thinks the generation behind them is ruining the country. Baby Boomers were going to do it. Generation X was going to do it. Generation Z is going to do it.

I think the bigger problem is the older people get the less they seem to understand the well of kids behind them. 

[BuckSwope 654]

14 minutes ago, avoiding injuries said:

Just a quick fyi… since I do think it’s a mental disorder, I’m supportive of mental health treatment. I’m not supportive of physical treatment. 

Then you understand why people might be upset about blocking "gender care" because it also blocks access to said mental health care.  

Like I said, I never see these bills addressing that missing need and ways to get people this mental health treatment, they are just about blocking care from people and places they don't want.   How is that helping the mental health issue at all?  

 

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

7 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Then you understand why people might be upset about blocking "gender care" because it also blocks access to said mental health care.  

Like I said, I never see these bills addressing that missing need and ways to get people this mental health treatment, they are just about blocking care from people and places they don't want.   How is that helping the mental health issue at all?  

 

This is a problem we run into...The debate becomes about "Let's open the doors to everything" or "Let's close the doors to everything." There is far more nuance in it and no one in politics tries to find that middle ground anymore of "We can allow this, but not this" because the culture warriors fire up as needed. 

[avoiding injuries 1,589]

18 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Then you understand why people might be upset about blocking "gender care" because it also blocks access to said mental health care.  

Like I said, I never see these bills addressing that missing need and ways to get people this mental health treatment, they are just about blocking care from people and places they don't want.   How is that helping the mental health issue at all?  

 

I don’t think gender issues is the cause of the mental illness, but rather the result. You can treat the mental illness without classifying it as gender care, like every other mental health issue. Why are there special circumstances here only because it’s a polarizing (and now political) topic?

[jonmx 2,429]

37 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

From an article discussing a NYTimes piece on puberty blockers:

Again- it's a subset of a subset of a population. 

Furthermore, the most commonly prescribed puberty blocker is Lupron which "...has been prescribed for over 30 years, in a variety of medical contexts, to treat both children and adults. In addition to being used for prostate cancer, for endometriosis, and to address the distressing psychological effects of early puberty, it’s used (rarely!) to halt puberty for adolescents experiencing severe gender dysphoria.

And I would bet those numbers are grossly underestimated.  Every story from the detransitioners point to how hard these clinics push the gender blockers, hormones, and surgery onto them.   I seriously doubt just a few thousand kids are keeping these 300 plus clinics open.  We need real statistics from the drug producers and clinics.  Not some Reuters reporter who has an agenda.  

Your whitewashing of Lupron is cute.  It has been used for some legititimate uses to prevent abnormal development in children as well as some nefarious uses such as chemical castration.   It is only approved to use to prevent early onset of puberty.  To stop normal child development is not a usage that has been studied and approved.  

 

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

Just now, jonmx said:

And I would bet those numbers are grossly underestimated.  Every story from the detransitioners point to how hard these clinics push the gender blockers, hormones, and surgery onto them.   I seriously doubt just a few thousand kids are keeping these 300 plus clinics open.  We need real statistics from the drug producers and clinics.  Not some Reuters reporter who has an agenda.  

Your whitewashing of Lupron is cute.  It has been used for some legititimate uses to prevent abnormal development in children as well as some nefarious uses such as chemical castration.   It is only approved to use to prevent early onset of puberty.  To stop normal child development is not a usage that has been studied and approved.  

 

So your first paragraph is basically "I don't agree with the data because feelings...."

The second paragraph doesn't really change anything I said and you are assuming I am "whitewashing" Lupron. 

[jonmx 2,429]

34 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Then you understand why people might be upset about blocking "gender care" because it also blocks access to said mental health care.  

Like I said, I never see these bills addressing that missing need and ways to get people this mental health treatment, they are just about blocking care from people and places they don't want.   How is that helping the mental health issue at all?  

 

That is false.  The most comprehensive guidelines against gender affirming care for minors was passed in Florida, and it specifically recommends support and therapy for youth while specifically banning blocker, hormones, and surgery.  

[jonmx 2,429]

6 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

So your first paragraph is basically "I don't agree with the data because feelings...."

The second paragraph doesn't really change anything I said and you are assuming I am "whitewashing" Lupron. 

No, it has nothing to do with feelings.  It is based on a lifetime worth of knowledge on being lied to by the media and having a thorough understanding of the current agenda to push gender affirming care on to the youths by the radical leftists.   Show me some real data, not some extrapolation from the tea leaves by someone that has an agenda. 

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

Just now, jonmx said:

No, it has nothing to do with feelings.  It is based on a lifetime worth of knowledge on being lied to by the media and having a thorough understanding of the current agenda to push gender affirming care on to the youths by the radical leftists.  

 

[BuckSwope 654]

16 minutes ago, avoiding injuries said:

I don’t think gender issues is the cause of the mental illness, but rather the result. You can treat the mental illness without classifying it as gender care, like every other mental health issue. Why are there special circumstances here only because it’s a polarizing (and now political) topic?

Again, see my back and forth last night.   Our mental health system is stressed and backlogged as it is.   I am not even saying it has to be different, my point is simply that IMO there are no plans to address that after blocking gender care in these plans and bills I've scanned.    I very well could be wrong, but what it feels like is that we are saying you can't get the care you are currently getting, and good luck!    

IMO if we are saying that we trust this group of people to accurately counsel them without steering towards other things, then we should let them be or at least propose plans that allow patients to keep that portion of the gender care.   If we don't trust them, then we need a whole new set of mental health professionals to take care of that treatment for these people, which is my point - I don't see anything that addresses that.  

[BuckSwope 654]

9 minutes ago, jonmx said:

That is false.  The most comprehensive guidelines against gender affirming care for minors was passed in Florida, and it specifically recommends support and therapy for youth while specifically banning blocker, hormones, and surgery.  

That's awesome, and that's one state.  I have seen others that don't address that, so just like other things we should take it state by state and bill by bill.  

Can you at least understand my concern also that recommending that isn't the same as reasonably being able to get that care?   The devil is in the details, and I haven't followed FL too closely - are they closing these clinics or are they allowing them to remain open for other care, but not for the hormones and surgeries to minors? 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,482]

4 hours ago, Sean Mooney said:

You do know how to use the Internet right?

I checked. The internet said you’re FOS. No long term studies have been done. 

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

6 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I checked. The internet said you’re FOS. No long term studies have been done. 

You are wrong....just stop

[Hardcore troubadour 15,482]

2 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

You are wrong....just stop

Stop pointing out that you’re FOS? Nah. 

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

Just now, Hardcore troubadour said:

Stop pointing out that you’re FOS? Nah. 

Again I will ask- are you autistic or somewhere on the spectrum?

It would explain a lot about you. 

[MDC 7,470]

Looks like puberty blockers are reversible. Here’s one of many sources:

https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible#what-theyre-for

As a parent I wouldn’t sign off on this because we don’t know what taking them could potentially do to kids psychologically.

Calling it “chemical castration” is an extreme reach though.

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

5 minutes ago, MDC said:

Looks like puberty blockers are reversible. Here’s one of many sources:

https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible#what-theyre-for

As a parent I wouldn’t sign off on this because we don’t know what taking them could potentially do to kids psychologically.

Calling it “chemical castration” is an extreme reach though.

It's what they do...they have to go overboard to present it as a problem 

[jerryskids 6,820]

2 hours ago, Sean Mooney said:

I think something to note is- an older generation almost always thinks the generation behind them is ruining the country. Baby Boomers were going to do it. Generation X was going to do it. Generation Z is going to do it.

I think the bigger problem is the older people get the less they seem to understand the well of kids behind them. 

This is absolutely true.  The difference this time around, however, is that we are actually listening to these youngsters and letting them drive policy.  For every previous generation, when they'd come up with some crazy notion (I identify as a cat!), we'd nod our head and give them a little rope.  But recognizing that we had underwear in our drawer with more life experience than these kids, we'd eventually pull the rope and rein them back in.

Now, not so much.

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

6 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

This is absolutely true.  The difference this time around, however, is that we are actually listening to these youngsters and letting them drive policy.  For every previous generation, when they'd come up with some crazy notion (I identify as a cat!), we'd nod our head and give them a little rope.  But recognizing that we had underwear in our drawer with more life experience than these kids, we'd eventually pull the rope and rein them back in.

Now, not so much.

Or you are older and are far more conditioned that it is now  major problem and this is the one time it isn't going to be fixed. 

[jerryskids 6,820]

9 minutes ago, MDC said:

Looks like puberty blockers are reversible. Here’s one of many sources:

https://www.healthline.com/health/are-puberty-blockers-reversible#what-theyre-for

As a parent I wouldn’t sign off on this because we don’t know what taking them could potentially do to kids psychologically.

Calling it “chemical castration” is an extreme reach though.

They didn't say it was "reversible."  They said it would "resume exactly as it would have."  It was worded carefully that way because, for a "scientific" article, it has an extremely strong and clear agenda. 

They specifically discussed the issue of "precocious puberty," where puberty starts early and can be dangerous if it runs too long/much.  Puberty blockers are used to stop this for a time, then stopped at the appropriate time so that puberty can continue.  Thus a person goes from "hyper" (too much) puberty to normal puberty.

Extending that principal to boys and girls on an otherwise normal puberty path, if we stop the puberty process for some time, they would go from normal puberty to "hypo" (too little) puberty.  Nowhere in that article does it say that puberty will extend to make up for the lost time, and in fact their experience with precocious puberty indicates that it does NOT happen.

HTH

 

[jerryskids 6,820]

2 minutes ago, Sean Mooney said:

Or you are older and are far more conditioned that it is now  major problem and this is the one time it isn't going to be fixed. 

Maybe you are right.  Let's throw puberty blockers at every confused kid, what's the worry?  It's only, what was your conservative estimate, 5000 kids?  That's no big deal.   

[MDC 7,470]

Just now, jerryskids said:

They didn't say it was "reversible."  They said it would "resume exactly as it would have."  It was worded carefully that way because, for a "scientific" article, it has an extremely strong and clear agenda. 

They specifically discussed the issue of "precocious puberty," where puberty starts early and can be dangerous if it runs too long/much.  Puberty blockers are used to stop this for a time, then stopped at the appropriate time so that puberty can continue.  Thus a person goes from "hyper" (too much) puberty to normal puberty.

Extending that principal to boys and girls on an otherwise normal puberty path, if we stop the puberty process for some time, they would go from normal puberty to "hypo" (too little) puberty.  Nowhere in that article does it say that puberty will extend to make up for the lost time, and in fact their experience with precocious puberty indicates that it does NOT happen.

HTH

 

Okay, that’s a fair point. I’ve Googled a little because this is all new to me and I honestly didn’t know how it worked. I’m skeptical even if there aren’t long term physical issues. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,482]

10 minutes ago, MDC said:

Okay, that’s a fair point. I’ve Googled a little because this is all new to me and I honestly didn’t know how it worked. I’m skeptical even if there aren’t long term physical issues. 

[Sean Mooney 1,984]

10 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Maybe you are right.  Let's throw puberty blockers at every confused kid, what's the worry?  It's only, what was your conservative estimate, 5000 kids?  That's no big deal.   

Typical Jerry tactic to go way into hyperbolic overdrive.

1.) I didn't say anything about throwing puberty blockers at every confused kid. But that is not what happens either.

2.) It wasn't my estimate- it was from a Reuters estimate.

Why are you so hellbent to take everything to doucheville when you argue?

[Raven Fan 362]

Now can y'all see why I hammer Jon so?  He has ZERO facts, just feelz, yet he continually overstates and acts hysterical about something that's incredibly rare.

His utter dedication to spreading lies and exaggerating the impact of these questionable procedures is what makes me believe he's more than a little off in the head.  He acts like liberals are grabbing kids and just throwing them into castrastration procedures is sickening and perverse. 

[MDC 7,470]

Somebody free to entertain Toddler Pilot? He’s been humping my leg all week.

Hopefully one of the newcomers has the XMas shift covered this year.