War in Israel

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

37 minutes ago, nobody said:

Wow.  Tim is bigger POS than I thought.

Classy. 

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

So back to the topic: 

Netanyahu interviewed this morning on Meet The Press, says Israel will handle security for Gaza indefinitely, but will not govern Gaza. Ruled out the American proposal that Gaza be governed by the Palestinian Authority. Who then is going to govern Gaza? No answer. 

[League Champion 1,911]

15 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Who then is going to govern Gaza? No answer. 

The same thing that happened in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel will essentially pick candidates, set up "free elections" and then oversee that Government. It's political occupation. 

[GutterBoy 2,899]

1 hour ago, nobody said:

Wow.  Tim is bigger POS than I thought.

Are you literally shaking right now?

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

13 minutes ago, League Champion said:

The same thing that happened in Afghanistan and Iraq. Israel will essentially pick candidates, set up "free elections" and then oversee that Government. It's political occupation. 

Well first off that will never happen because unlike Afghanistan and Iraq, Israel will have NO allies among the Palestinians. 
And second even with our so-called allies both of those situations were complete disasters for the USA 

[League Champion 1,911]

7 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Israel will have NO allies among the Palestinians

Wrong again Fraud Boy. They WILL find them and they will form the new Government as they see fit. That's EXACTLY what this war is for, all the reason for the invasion. 

[League Champion 1,911]

 

[jerryskids 6,797]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Well first off that will never happen because unlike Afghanistan and Iraq, Israel will have NO allies among the Palestinians. 
And second even with our so-called allies both of those situations were complete disasters for the USA 

Unpossible.  You told me the vast majority of Palestinians just want to get along.  I'm sure a bunch of like-minded people with your tenant will gladly cooperate with their zionist brethren. 

 

[jerryskids 6,797]

2 hours ago, Cdub100 said:

It's sad those people fall into the hate speech trap. They point fingers and say ohhhh ohhh arrest him for hate speech giving power to this idiotic belief that hate speech should be punishable. 

To be clear, I hate what the UK does with their 1984-like wrongthink arrests.  My post was in the vein of "what's good for the goose..." I suspect they'll find they have a different tolerance for this frothing Palestinian.

[RLLD 4,230]

1 hour ago, League Champion said:

Wrong again Fraud Boy. They WILL find them and they will form the new Government as they see fit. That's EXACTLY what this war is for, all the reason for the invasion. 

I disagree.  Generations of Palestidiots have been groomed to hate, to hate Jews pointedly but to hate “others”. 
 

Hate is now fully integrated into their culture, I cannot see how it could ever be unwound.

They will never accept a Jewish presence, they have said this since Israel was restored

[nobody 2,672]

2 hours ago, GutterBoy said:

Are you literally shaking right now?

Indeed

[nobody 2,672]

2 hours ago, League Champion said:

Wrong again Fraud Boy. They WILL find them and they will form the new Government as they see fit. That's EXACTLY what this war is for, all the reason for the invasion. 

These are the same clowns who screwed up covid, and then said, "well we tried our best." If their best sucks so bad, I don't know why they need to keep trying to participate.

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

40 minutes ago, RLLD said:

I disagree.  Generations of Palestidiots have been groomed to hate, to hate Jews pointedly but to hate “others”. 
 

Hate is now fully integrated into their culture, I cannot see how it could ever be unwound.

They will never accept a Jewish presence, they have said this since Israel was restored

I think there are exceptions and there is a window for opportunity here. But no Palestinian is going to be able to work with the current Netanyahu government without being called a pawn and threatened with assassination. 

What is needed is a new Israeli government and new Palestinian leadership.I continue to believe that, no matter what they say or do in anger and hatred, most Palestinians finally want what most people on Earth finally want: to live in peace and safety and financial prosperity with their families around them enjoying life. I would have said that the vast majority of Palestinians have not enjoyed these simple things since 1948, but the sadder truth is that they have NEVER enjoyed them. 

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

1 minute ago, nobody said:

These are the same clowns who screwed up covid, and then said, "well we tried our best." 

Trump isn’t involved in this. Hopefully he won’t be. 

[RLLD 4,230]

5 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I think there are exceptions and there is a window for opportunity here. But no Palestinian is going to be able to work with the current Netanyahu government without being called a pawn and threatened with assassination. 

What is needed is a new Israeli government and new Palestinian leadership.I continue to believe that, no matter what they say or do in anger and hatred, most Palestinians finally want what most people on Earth finally want: to live in peace and safety and financial prosperity with their families around them enjoying life. I would have said that the vast majority of Palestinians have not enjoyed these simple things since 1948, but the sadder truth is that they have NEVER enjoyed them. 

Palestidiots, but also to the wider Islamic realm, will never accept the presence of Israel. They will always be violent, then pretend to be the victim.

this will never change

[Gepetto 1,368]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Trump isn’t involved in this. Hopefully he won’t be. 

Why? Bad take. Under President Trump 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_peace_plan

 

[jerryskids 6,797]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

I think there are exceptions and there is a window for opportunity here. But no Palestinian is going to be able to work with the current Netanyahu government without being called a pawn and threatened with assassination. 

What is needed is a new Israeli government and new Palestinian leadership.I continue to believe that, no matter what they say or do in anger and hatred, most Palestinians finally want what most people on Earth finally want: to live in peace and safety and financial prosperity with their families around them enjoying life. I would have said that the vast majority of Palestinians have not enjoyed these simple things since 1948, but the sadder truth is that they have NEVER enjoyed them. 

For 75 years, numerous Israeli leaderships have proposed numerous two-state solutions to numerous Palestinian leaders.  Nothing.  But this time it will be different.  What makes you think that, all of the mostly peaceful protests around the country?

Yours is an absolutely perfect example of a liberal incorrectly projecting his (western) ideals on a situation.

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

34 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

For 75 years, numerous Israeli leaderships have proposed numerous two-state solutions to numerous Palestinian leaders.  Nothing.  But this time it will be different.  What makes you think that, all of the mostly peaceful protests around the country?

Yours is an absolutely perfect example of a liberal incorrectly projecting his (western) ideals on a situation.

And YOU my friend, are an absolutely perfect example of a conservative so fixed in his conceptions that you can’t see the possibilities for change even when they slap you in the face. And what’s ironic about that is that, in your quest for determinism, you’re a lot closer to Marxism than you think. 
 

If you study history, particularly modern history (the last 200 years, since the Industrial Revolution) you discover two absolute truths: 

1. Nothing is inevitable. 
2. When things happen, they happen very quickly and usually to the utter surprise of the experts. Overnight, the world is different than it was before. 
 

Two obvious examples of the 2nd truth are the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of Apartheid. In both instances the world was shocked by the suddenness of events. Can I predict that Israel and the Palestinians will have peace some day and when it will happen? No. But I think it can happen, and we should work to make it happen, and if and when it does the world will be shocked once again. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,430]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

And YOU my friend, are an absolutely perfect example of a conservative so fixed in his conceptions that you can’t see the possibilities for change even when they slap you in the face. And what’s ironic about that is that, in your quest for determinism, you’re a lot closer to Marxism than you think. 
 

If you study history, particularly modern history (the last 200 years, since the Industrial Revolution) you discover two absolute truths: 

1. Nothing is inevitable. 
2. When things happen, they happen very quickly and usually to the utter surprise of the experts. Overnight, the world is different than it was before. 
 

Two obvious examples of the 2nd truth are the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of Apartheid. In both instances the world was shocked by the suddenness of events. Can I predict that Israel and the Palestinians will have peace some day and when it will happen? No. But I think it can happen, and we should work to make it happen, and if and when it does the world will be shocked once again. 

No sick religion involved with those examples. Muslims are gonna go against the holy Koran because some politicians shook hands? Grow up. 

[Mark Davis 398]

4 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

And YOU my friend, are an absolutely perfect example of a conservative so fixed in his conceptions that you can’t see the possibilities for change even when they slap you in the face. And what’s ironic about that is that, in your quest for determinism, you’re a lot closer to Marxism than you think. 
 

If you study history, particularly modern history (the last 200 years, since the Industrial Revolution) you discover two absolute truths: 

1. Nothing is inevitable. 
2. When things happen, they happen very quickly and usually to the utter surprise of the experts. Overnight, the world is different than it was before. 
 

Two obvious examples of the 2nd truth are the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of Apartheid. In both instances the world was shocked by the suddenness of events. Can I predict that Israel and the Palestinians will have peace some day and when it will happen? No. But I think it can happen, and we should work to make it happen, and if and when it does the world will be shocked once again. 

Interesting you are projecting Marxism toward those on the right given what we are seeing in the streets around the globe.  Now I grant you those on the fringe right probably have some things in common with those folks.  In this case though, it's not those on the right accusing Biden of genocide, who speak in terms of oppressed, oppressors, and colonizers, and perhaps worst of all are speaking of how evil Western culture is and our capitalist system.  Those people in the streets should be thankful for Western civilization and values, most would jail and/or execute them for taking to the streets as they have.  They want that freedom and tolerance for themselves, but would be all too happy to take it away from those who they disagree with because they hate our system and what it stands for.

[jerryskids 6,797]

30 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

And YOU my friend, are an absolutely perfect example of a conservative so fixed in his conceptions that you can’t see the possibilities for change even when they slap you in the face. And what’s ironic about that is that, in your quest for determinism, you’re a lot closer to Marxism than you think. 
 

If you study history, particularly modern history (the last 200 years, since the Industrial Revolution) you discover two absolute truths: 

1. Nothing is inevitable. 
2. When things happen, they happen very quickly and usually to the utter surprise of the experts. Overnight, the world is different than it was before. 
 

Two obvious examples of the 2nd truth are the fall of the Soviet Union and the end of Apartheid. In both instances the world was shocked by the suddenness of events. Can I predict that Israel and the Palestinians will have peace some day and when it will happen? No. But I think it can happen, and we should work to make it happen, and if and when it does the world will be shocked once again. 

What exactly is slapping me in the face?  Your irrefutable logic that since the Soviet Union fell, Palestinians will peacefully coexist with Israel?

You are right, how could I miss it?  From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!  Allah Akbar#@!

Every post of yours on this topic shows why you belong with the college children in their irrational belief in the goodness of a soulless, terrorist state.

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

33 minutes ago, Mark Davis said:

Interesting you are projecting Marxism toward those on the right given what we are seeing in the streets around the globe.  Now I grant you those on the fringe right probably have some things in common with those folks.  In this case though, it's not those on the right accusing Biden of genocide, who speak in terms of oppressed, oppressors, and colonizers, and perhaps worst of all are speaking of how evil Western culture is and our capitalist system.  Those people in the streets should be thankful for Western civilization and values, most would jail and/or execute them for taking to the streets as they have.  They want that freedom and tolerance for themselves, but would be all too happy to take it away from those who they disagree with because they hate our system and what it stands for.

I am not projecting Marxism on Jerry except for the historical determinism. He seems to believe that people are fixed in their beliefs and will act as we predict they should react based on how they consistently acted before. That’s a Marxist conclusion. Classical liberalism (from which both western liberalism and conservatism derive) takes a different approach. 

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

12 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

What exactly is slapping me in the face?  Your irrefutable logic that since the Soviet Union fell, Palestinians will peacefully coexist with Israel?

You are right, how could I miss it?  From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!  Allah Akbar#@!

Every post of yours on this topic shows why you belong with the college children in their irrational belief in the goodness of a soulless, terrorist state.

No. Those children (some of them quite old professors) are blind to the evil that is Hamas. I am not. I acknowledge that evil. I don’t apply it to a collective group of people. 
 

Forgive me for using the Nazi analogy (because it’s so tired) but what the heck: you know that at the height of the Third Reich, say around 1938 or so, Nazism was incredibly popular in Germany. Roughly 90% or more of Germans approved of the Nazis. I think we can agree that Nazism, like Hamas, is evil. Does that mean that 90% of Germans were evil? Maybe you think so. I do not. I think they merely blinded themselves to the evil aspects of Nazism and looked at the good parts. Which is human nature. And that is my judgment on most Palestinians. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,430]

Maybe Allah can come down and make a deal? That’s what it’s going to take. Muhammad left strict orders in his name not to make peace. 

[jerryskids 6,797]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

No. Those children (some of them quite old professors) are blind to the evil that is Hamas. I am not. I acknowledge that evil. I don’t apply it to a collective group of people. 
 

Forgive me for using the Nazi analogy (because it’s so tired) but what the heck: you know that at the height of the Third Reich, say around 1938 or so, Nazism was incredibly popular in Germany. Roughly 90% or more of Germans approved of the Nazis. I think we can agree that Nazism, like Hamas, is evil. Does that mean that 90% of Germans were evil? Maybe you think so. I do not. I think they merely blinded themselves to the evil aspects of Nazism and looked at the good parts. Which is human nature. And that is my judgment on most Palestinians. 

A few differences.  One, 90% of the people didn't know the extent of the atrocities.  Two, 75 years of no peace.  Multiple regimes, same result.  Hamas is only the past 18 years.  Three, those 75 years have generated multiple years of increasing hate, as evidenced by Gutter's poll which shows that younger people are less interested in peace.

Your judgment is in direct contradiction to that poll.

[Strike 5,542]

 

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

A few differences.  One, 90% of the people didn't know the extent of the atrocities.  Two, 75 years of no peace.  Multiple regimes, same result.  Hamas is only the past 18 years.  Three, those 75 years have generated multiple years of increasing hate, as evidenced by Gutter's poll which shows that younger people are less interested in peace.

Your judgment is in direct contradiction to that poll.

I’ve enjoyed this debate. We disagree and that’s fine. You raise very good points though I just don’t agree with your conclusions. 
 

But in the end it will play out however it plays out. I guess we’ll see. 

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

Many of my views on this issue have been shaped by Thomas Friedman and Peter Beinart, two extraordinary writers who have studied this conflict for years. They are pointing to a “Nelson Mandela” type figure, currently in an Israeli prison, who might eventually work with Israel towards establishing a peace. Here is the guy they are thinking about: 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marwan_Barghouti

 

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

I am not projecting Marxism on Jerry except for the historical determinism. He seems to believe that people are fixed in their beliefs and will act as we predict they should react based on how they consistently acted before. That’s a Marxist conclusion. Classical liberalism (from which both western liberalism and conservatism derive) takes a different approach. 

 

 

"I continue to believe that, no matter what they say or do in anger and hatred, most Palestinians finally want what most people on Earth finally want: to live in peace and safety and financial prosperity with their families around them enjoying life."

 

********

 

https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/israel-has-committed-too-many-crimes-it’s-time-to-stop-supporting-them.661756/post-24033954

timschochet:  "But the Palestinians are largely extremist. While many of their complaints about Israel are justified, their “solutions” to these complaints are radical and often murderous and evil. I have no sympathy for people who blow up schools and hospitals and never will. We can’t work with such people....

And let me be even further clear: anyone who damns Israel while at the same time making excuses for Palestinian terrorism and extremism is a terrible hypocrite. And if their language against Israel and it’s American supporters is rooted in anti-Semitism (and here I’m specifically referring to Ihlan Omer) then that person deserves universal condemnation. 

But none of this has anything to do with my opinion about Israel. Just because the Palestinians have acted badly doesn’t mean the Israelis haven’t acted badly. They have. They have committed awful, criminal acts. And frankly this means more to me than the Palestinian bad acts because I expect more from the Israelis. And so I can’t support them any longer. "

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

6 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

.I continue to believe that, no matter what they say or do in anger and hatred, most Palestinians finally want what most people on Earth finally want: to live in peace and safety and financial prosperity with their families around them enjoying life.

 

https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/israel-has-committed-too-many-crimes-it’s-time-to-stop-supporting-them.661756/post-24034031

timschochet: 'I paid attention. My whole life I’ve been a firm supporter of Israel. That ends today. This was the final straw. I think we should cut off all support until they change their behavior. 

GordonGekko:  "timschochet changed the (topic thread) title to 'Israel has committed too many crimes. It’s time to stop supporting them.'

When did "you" become "we"? I can't speak for anyone else, but I want zero part in your evolution towards antisemitism. If that's your personal path, that's your choice, feel free not to drag anyone else there with you. Particularly my fellow Conservatives......Your thread title leans in an overtly negative way. I generally don't get too hung up in thread titles, but there is actually some cultural sensitivity to be played out here regarding Israel and antisemitism...."

 

 

 

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

He really works hard at this. But like the majority of other quotes he offers from me over the years, I stand by them. And I don’t see any contradiction. 
 

If you want to go back over what I’ve written over the years you WILL find contradictions of course. I’ve changed my mind on a lot of issues, sometimes because I’ve learned more about them, but sometimes just because I’ve changed my mind. But apparently this guy, despite all of his efforts, is too inept to discover them. 

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

10 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

But like the majority of other quotes he offers from me over the years, I stand by them. And I don’t see any contradiction. 

 

https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/israel-has-committed-too-many-crimes-it’s-time-to-stop-supporting-them.661756/post-19735455

timschochet: "All the issues preventing (or pointing to) a 2 state solution remain the same. Jerusalem isn't any more threatened than it was before. I will say this: has Hillary won this would not have happened as I suspect she would have had veto power. This abstention represents a victory for the Sanders wing of the Democratic Party which has been trying to sever somewhat our alliance with Israel. 

So just as American politics has become extreme in every other way, so it is on this issue as well: from now on the main divide will be between the Sanders-Ellison wing of the Democrats, hypocritically leftist and pro-Palestinian, and the Republicans from Trump on down who will blindly swallow whatever Netanyahu tells them. The reasonable, thoughtful person who supports Israel but is looking for a reasonable way out of this mess and to preserve long term American interests? She lost the election, and her voice will no longer be heard."

 

 

 

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

15 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

 And I don’t see any contradiction. 

 

https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/israel-has-committed-too-many-crimes-it’s-time-to-stop-supporting-them.661756/post-19735455

timschochet: "All the issues preventing (or pointing to) a 2 state solution remain the same. Jerusalem isn't any more threatened than it was before. I will say this: has Hillary won this would not have happened as I suspect she would have had veto power. This abstention represents a victory for the Sanders wing of the Democratic Party which has been trying to sever somewhat our alliance with Israel. 

So just as American politics has become extreme in every other way, so it is on this issue as well: from now on the main divide will be between the Sanders-Ellison wing of the Democrats, hypocritically leftist and pro-Palestinian, and the Republicans from Trump on down who will blindly swallow whatever Netanyahu tells them. The reasonable, thoughtful person who supports Israel but is looking for a reasonable way out of this mess and to preserve long term American interests? She lost the election, and her voice will no longer be heard."

 

 

 

 

[Blue Horseshoe 348]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Roughly 90% or more of Germans approved of the Nazis. I think we can agree that Nazism, like Hamas, is evil. Does that mean that 90% of Germans were evil? Maybe you think so. I do not. I think they merely blinded themselves to the evil aspects of Nazism and looked at the good parts. Which is human nature. And that is my judgment on most Palestinians. 

 

https://forums.footballguys.com/threads/i-no-longer-have-any-compassion-for-palestinians.704377/post-16571895

timschochet: "Palestinians, as a whole, HAVE been stupid and continue to act stupid."

 

 

 

 

[The Real timschochet 6,764]

Thanks for reminding me of all that. Damn I’m smarter than I thought. And so friggin eloquent too. My words fairly leap off the page, it’s hard not to be impressed. 

[GutterBoy 2,899]

Sad scene at a hospital in Gaza this morning.  War is hell.

[nobody 2,672]

I guess I can say the protests are real now.  Free Palestine protestors are blocking every entrance to our plant.

I've seen it with my own eyes!

[jerryskids 6,797]

8 minutes ago, nobody said:

I guess I can say the protests are real now.  Free Palestine protestors are blocking every entrance to our plant.

I've seen it with my own eyes!

I have a feeling that some protestors are in for a FAFO moment.  We'll see if it happens.

When the MIT stuff was posted I thought about one of my best friends from South Boston.  He had some townie friends from his neighborhood who, let's just say, didn't mind getting into a scrap.  I could see them throwing on some yarmulkes and walking through a protest, waiting for someone to get in their face.  Wannabee tough guy protestors would not have liked the result.

[Reality 3,121]

14 minutes ago, nobody said:

I guess I can say the protests are real now.  Free Palestine protestors are blocking every entrance to our plant.

I've seen it with my own eyes!

I work from home and they aren't at the end of my driveway so, I don't quite believe it yet.

[IGotWorms 4,058]

1 hour ago, Reality said:

I work from home and they aren't at the end of my driveway so, I don't quite believe it yet.

What do you do again?