War in Israel

[BuckSwope 654]

11 minutes ago, Strike said:

Did some googling.  Was unable to confirm that Israel prevents Palestinians from leaving the Gaza strip.  I'm sure you can provide some evidence of this "fact.".  TIA

Maybe read more or you are purposely being obtuse or too literal.   Isreal very much had put a clamp on movement in and out.  They have reasons, as do countries around them for this, put it's reality in Gaza.   For a decade + it's been extremely difficult for Palestinians to leave there, and conditions are terrible- goods, water, etc. 

[MDC 5,895]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Is there any evidence to suggest Israel’s neighbors could actually annihilate them?  History seems to say otherwise.

US support is what keeps them from trying. Israel’s military isn’t any better funded or larger than say Iran.

[GutterBoy 2,281]

Turkey threatening to go to Gaza to fight Israelis.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1829092/Erdogan-Turkey-Israel-war-Gaza

[jonnyutah 122]

14 hours ago, IGotWorms said:

As I understand they’re giving names and ID numbers. I guess it could still be false but it’s not like some estimate they’re pulling out of their butts: https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-gaza-health-ministry-health-death-toll-59470820308b31f1faf73c703400b033

UN thinks it’s a good faith effort.

And the Israelis are ensuring no one can independently assess, which should concern you.

Oh, they are giving ID numbers? Oh, totally not made up at all then. 

The UN, lol.

 

They couldn't even vote to condemn what happened on October 7th. 

[Engorgeous George 1,183]

16 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

Turkey threatening to go to Gaza to fight Israelis.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1829092/Erdogan-Turkey-Israel-war-Gaza

Teaching us what then about NATO?

[HellToupee 749]

27 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

Turkey threatening to go to Gaza to fight Israelis.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1829092/Erdogan-Turkey-Israel-war-Gaza

Holy war

[Engorgeous George 1,183]

2 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Holy war

It seems the Muslim world will do anything in support of the Palestinians except allow them to relocate to their countries.  

[blick 11]

32 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

Turkey threatening to go to Gaza to fight Israelis.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1829092/Erdogan-Turkey-Israel-war-Gaza

Cool.  Then Gaza will look like Bakhmut.  That will help those Palestinians.  

[Voltaire 4,564]

4 hours ago, GutterBoy said:

Turkey threatening to go to Gaza to fight Israelis.

https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1829092/Erdogan-Turkey-Israel-war-Gaza

Oh, good grief.

Wanna open Turkey to 2M Gaza refugees? No? How about 100K? 5K? 200?

[The Real timschochet 2,951]

9 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

Oh, good grief.

Wanna open Turkey to 2M Gaza refugees? No? How about 100K? 5K? 200?

Turkey actually has thousands of Palestinian refugees already, as a result of the Syrian war. Also thousands of Ukrainians. Say what you want about Turkey but they take in more refugees than any other country on that side of the world. 

[Strike 3,980]

1 hour ago, MDC said:

I’m sure if you Googled extra hard you’d find out that Palestinians in Gaza aren’t allowed to travel through Israel unless they have a government issued permit. 

No.  I believe you're being overly simplistic, either intentionally or out of ignorance.  My understanding is there are three categories of Palestinians:

1)  Those with Israeli passports.  This category of Palestinian is allowed to travel through Israel, including using it's airports.

2)  Palestinians with Israeli ID cards but not passports.  This category of Palestinian can freely travel around Israel but may have trouble using it's airports without a passport.

3)  Palestinians with neither an ID or passport from Israel.  This category is the one with the most issue traveling.  But is that Israel's fault?  Why doesn't Egypt freely allow those Palestinians to travel through Egypt? 

In summary, I think you're purposely mischaracterizing how Israel treats Palestinians.  The restrictions they place on traveling through Israel are reasonable and just given the situation. 

Maybe the Palestinians should stop acting like terrorists?  Maybe the Palestinians should stop spending all the aid they're given on building tunnels and instead help their people any maybe build infrastructure.  They could even build an airport and then they wouldn't have to travel through other countries.  What a concept.

When you say there are 2 million Palestinians that can't leave you're lying.  They can travel.  Some very freely.  Even the most restricted can travel through Jordan.  The fact that OTHER neighboring countries are as concerned as Israel about terrorist Palestinians isn't Israel's fault.   For the same reasons those countries aren't accepting Palestinian refugees. 

[DonS 3,067]

49 minutes ago, HellToupee said:

Holy war

 

 

[Cdub100 3,384]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Turkey actually has thousands of Palestinian refugees already, as a result of the Syrian war. Also thousands of Ukrainians. Say what you want about Turkey but they take in more refugees than any other country on that side of the world. 

I watched a very interesting video about Turkey. Turns out Turkey will always do what they think is best for Turkey. NATO, EU they don't care. 

[Voltaire 4,564]

 

 

4 hours ago, Strike said:

No.  I believe you're being overly simplistic, either intentionally or out of ignorance.  My understanding is there are three categories of Palestinians:

1)  Those with Israeli passports.  This category of Palestinian is allowed to travel through Israel, including using it's airports.

2)  Palestinians with Israeli ID cards but not passports.  This category of Palestinian can freely travel around Israel but may have trouble using it's airports without a passport.

3)  Palestinians with neither and ID or passport from Israel.  This category is the one with the most issue traveling.  But is that Israel's fault?  Why doesn't Egypt freely allow those Palestinians to travel through Egypt? 

In summary, I think you're purposely mischaracterizing how Israel treats Palestinians.  The restrictions they place on traveling through Israel are reasonable and just given the situation. 

Maybe the Palestinians should stop acting like terrorists?  Maybe the Palestinians should stop spending all the aid they're given on building tunnels and instead help their people any maybe build infrastructure.  They could even build an airport and then they wouldn't have to travel through other countries.  What a concept.

When you say there are 2 million Palestinians that can't leave you're lying.  They can travel.  Some very freely.  Even the most restricted can travel through Jordan.  The fact that OTHER neighboring countries are as concerned as Israel about terrorist Palestinians isn't Israel's fault.   For the same reasons those countries aren't accepting Palestinian refugees. 

Palestinians and Jordanians are the same people but after the PLO tried a couple of times to assassinate the king of Jordan, he rained hell on them, indiscriminately killed their civilians and pushed them out of his country. Egypt doesn't want Palestinians either. Nor does anybody else. 

[Strike 3,980]

3 minutes ago, Voltaire said:

Palestinians and Jordanians are the same people but after the PLO tried a couple of times to assassinate the king of Jordan, he rained hell on them, indiscriminately killed their civilians and pushed them out of his country. Egypt doesn't want Palestinians either. Nor does anybody else. 

Well, according to MDC, it's all Israel's fault!!!!

[jonnyutah 122]

1 hour ago, HellToupee said:

Holy war

I read this as if Robin was saying it. 

[Mike Hunt 154]

These kinds of acts should garner more sympathy for Hamas. 

 

Shani Louk confirmed dead. The young German-Israeli tattoo artist who was paraded through the streets of Gaza after being kidnapped by Hamas has been found dead after “sadistic” terrorists “chopped off her head,” it was revealed Monday.

[IGotWorms 3,317]

3 hours ago, Voltaire said:

Due to changes in life, I'm too busy to post as much as I use to, but everything I see KSB post is spot on the money for how I feel on these issues.

There is no moral equivalence. Hamas targets any Israeli civilian or military. Israel goes out of their way to warn Palestinian civilians to move and hold back from inflicting more casualites than necessary. Hamas uses this to their advantage, telling people not to move when attacked, hiding behind or underneath civilians and using schools and hospitals as the base of operations. As for the Palestinian people - they stay put and get bombed. Is it because they are more afraid of Hamas, they believe that dying this way demonstrates their religious piety and is honorable to God, because they have no where else to go, or some combination of factors? Whatever...  Hamas is using their own people as human shields.

Israelis aren't willing to live under threat from terrorists. No Muslim country (let alone anybody else) wants Palestinian refugees. It's a mess.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting moral equivalence, or at least I know I’m not.

The issue is genocide and indiscriminate killing of civilians is bad.

Has Hamas done this and would they do it again? Yes, of course.

But that doesn’t mean Israel and, essentially, the United States, should engage in it either. We lose our moral high ground and give cover to those who would commit such atrocities.

That’s my concern.

[MDC 5,895]

56 minutes ago, Strike said:

No.  I believe you're being overly simplistic, either intentionally or out of ignorance.  My understanding is there are three categories of Palestinians:

1)  Those with Israeli passports.  This category of Palestinian is allowed to travel through Israel, including using it's airports.

2)  Palestinians with Israeli ID cards but not passports.  This category of Palestinian can freely travel around Israel but may have trouble using it's airports without a passport.

3)  Palestinians with neither an ID or passport from Israel.  This category is the one with the most issue traveling.  But is that Israel's fault?  Why doesn't Egypt freely allow those Palestinians to travel through Egypt? 

In summary, I think you're purposely mischaracterizing how Israel treats Palestinians.  The restrictions they place on traveling through Israel are reasonable and just given the situation. 

Maybe the Palestinians should stop acting like terrorists?  Maybe the Palestinians should stop spending all the aid they're given on building tunnels and instead help their people any maybe build infrastructure.  They could even build an airport and then they wouldn't have to travel through other countries.  What a concept.

When you say there are 2 million Palestinians that can't leave you're lying.  They can travel.  Some very freely.  Even the most restricted can travel through Jordan.  The fact that OTHER neighboring countries are as concerned as Israel about terrorist Palestinians isn't Israel's fault.   For the same reasons those countries aren't accepting Palestinian refugees. 

Gazans have to apply for a government permit to travel freely throughout the country they live in. Sounds like you don’t disagree with me there, you just think that’s okay. 

[Cdub100 3,384]

2 hours ago, Engorgeous George said:

Teaching us what then about NATO?

 

[jonnyutah 122]

If you bomb the military and they happen to be near civilians that get killed, it is not a war crime. It is also not indiscriminate killing. 

There has never been anything wrong with this, ever.

It doesn't happen that often because most of the time the military isn't run by douchbags that live in mansions in other countries, but when it has happened in the past, we have not considered it to be something worthy of international condemnation. 

 

[Voltaire 4,564]

4 hours ago, IGotWorms said:

 

But that doesn’t mean Israel and, essentially, the United States, should engage in it either. We lose our moral high ground and give cover to those who would commit such atrocities.

That’s my concern.

Israel issues warnings to civilians to GTFO and goes out of their way to limit civilian casualties because of international pressure. Hamas tells them to stay and earn martyr status either because they want to use them as human shields or because they genuinely think this is a glorious way to die that pleases God.

Hamas is responsible for the deaths of both the Israeli civilians they kill directly and the Palestinian civilians they put in harm's way by building bunkers and tunnels in schools and hospitals.

[Cdub100 3,384]

Just now, Voltaire said:

Israel issues warnings to civilians to GTFO and goes out of their way to limit civilian casualties because of international pressure. Hamas tells them to stay and earn martyr status either because they want to use them as human shields or because they genuinely think this is a glorious way to die that pleases God.

Hamas is responsible for the deaths of both the Israeli civilians they kill directly and the Palestinian civilians they put in harm's way by building bunkers and tunnels in schools and hospitals.

I'm not sure it's that simple.

[IGotWorms 3,317]

Just now, Voltaire said:

Israel issues warnings to civilians to GTFO and goes out of their way to limit civilian casualties because of international pressure. Hamas tells them to stay and earn martyr status either because they want to use them as human shields or because they genuinely think this is a glorious way to die that pleases God.

Hamas is responsible for the deaths of both the Israeli civilians they kill directly and the Palestinian civilians they put in harm's way by building bunkers and tunnels in schools and hospitals.

There is no comparison. I agree. Your point is irrelevant.

The question is, how should the United States and Israel govern themselves?

And if you think it’s okay to act like Hamas because Hamas does, whoo boy that is a very troublesome viewpoint 

[Voltaire 4,564]

4 hours ago, MDC said:

Gazans have to apply for a government permit to travel freely throughout the country they live in. Sounds like you don’t disagree with me there, you just think that’s okay. 

It seems to be a decently workable solution considering the numbers of school buses that use to get blown up regularly has been curbed greatly in the last 30 years.

[Voltaire 4,564]

4 hours ago, Cdub100 said:

I'm not sure it's that simple.

It's not, they don't have any truly safe place to retreat to since the borders are shut. "Go south" doesn't really cut it. They also cut off electricity and water and any humanitarian aid that finds its way in either gets looted or goes to Hamas, which may or may not be the same people.

[Strike 3,980]

23 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

I don’t think anyone is suggesting moral equivalence, or at least I know I’m not.

The issue is genocide and indiscriminate killing of civilians is bad.

Has Hamas done this and would they do it again? Yes, of course.

But that doesn’t mean Israel and, essentially, the United States, should engage in it either. We lose our moral high ground and give cover to those who would commit such atrocities.

That’s my concern.

Israel is not and has never "indiscriminately" killed civilians.

[Strike 3,980]

8 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

And if you think it’s okay to act like Hamas because Hamas does, whoo boy that is a very troublesome viewpoint 

Israel does not and never has acted like Hamas.  If you believe this you're falling for Hamas propaganda. 

[Cdub100 3,384]

2 minutes ago, Strike said:

Israel is not and has never "indiscriminately" killed civilians.

Sure they have.

[IGotWorms 3,317]

Just now, Strike said:

Israel is not and has never "indiscriminately" killed civilians.

This siege on Gaza is close and probably does qualify. No water, no food, no electricity, place sealed off, bombing apartment buildings left and right … I mean you’d have to be willfully blind to not see it.

And to some extent, they were going to “get” to do that based on what Hamas did. But also, eventually they will have gone too far, and the question is, where’s that line.

[IGotWorms 3,317]

Just now, Strike said:

Israel does not and never has acted like Hamas.  If you believe this you're falling for Hamas propaganda. 

I was responding to Voltaire’s post and his views. HTH

[Strike 3,980]

3 minutes ago, IGotWorms said:

I was responding to Voltaire’s post and his views. HTH

Doesn't change the FACT that Israel does not and never has acted like Hamas.  HTH.

[IGotWorms 3,317]

Just now, Strike said:

Doesn't change the FACT that Israel does not and never has acted like Hamas.  HTH.

I didn’t say they did, dummy. I said the idea that Israel can do whatever they want because Hamas did horrible things is problematic, dipsh1t.

[Strike 3,980]

Just now, IGotWorms said:

I didn’t say they did, dummy. I said the idea that Israel can do whatever they want because Hamas did horrible things is problematic, dipsh1t.

Israel isn't, and can't. do whatever it wants.  HTH.

[Voltaire 4,564]

4 hours ago, IGotWorms said:

There is no comparison. I agree. Your point is irrelevant.

The question is, how should the United States and Israel govern themselves?

And if you think it’s okay to act like Hamas because Hamas does, whoo boy that is a very troublesome viewpoint 

 Hamas attacks any Israeli they can find. They are also responsible for the vast majority of their own civilians dying as well.

Israel only attacks military targets. Palestinian civilians die because Hamas deliberately hides behind their own civilians who they've either intimidated into staying or who've got imbibing the "stay and die like martyrs" propaganda.

Granted these Palestinian civilians don't have great options but they are not being targeted. Hamas hides behind them. I think that makes all the difference, but you seem too married to the moral equivalent argument to grasp the difference.

I'm like, "alright Israel, do what you have to do."

Then there's exception that proves the rule... the Palestinian hospital that did get indescriminatly bombed and caused international outrage... it was a misfired Palestinian rocket.

[IGotWorms 3,317]

Just now, Strike said:

Israel isn't, and can't. do whatever it wants.  HTH.

Ok good, we agree then: there are limits

[Strike 3,980]

28 minutes ago, MDC said:

Gazans have to apply for a government permit to travel freely throughout the country they live in. Sounds like you don’t disagree with me there, you just think that’s okay. 

I'll take this post as you admitting you lied when you said Israel didn't allow Palestinians to leave/travel.  Apology accepted. 

[GutterBoy 2,281]

8 minutes ago, Strike said:

Israel does not and never has acted like Hamas.  If you believe this you're falling for Hamas propaganda. 

Never say never

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_war_crimes_against_Israel#%3A~%3Atext%3DAmnesty_International_stated_that%3A_"Israeli%2Cvery_densely_populated_residential_areas?wprov=sfla1

[Strike 3,980]

2 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

Never say never

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allegations_of_war_crimes_against_Israel#%3A~%3Atext%3DAmnesty_International_stated_that%3A_"Israeli%2Cvery_densely_populated_residential_areas?wprov=sfla1

OMG someone ACCUSED Israel of doing bad things!!!!!

[GutterBoy 2,281]

3 hours ago, Strike said:

Did some googling.  Was unable to confirm that Israel prevents Palestinians from leaving the Gaza strip.  I'm sure you can provide some evidence of this "fact.".  TIA

 

36 minutes ago, MDC said:

Gazans have to apply for a government permit to travel freely throughout the country they live in. Sounds like you don’t disagree with me there, you just think that’s okay. 

 

7 minutes ago, Strike said:

I'll take this post as you admitting you lied when you said Israel didn't allow Palestinians to leave/travel.  Apology accepted. 

 

Someone is lying alright.