Zimmerman - Guilty of Murder or Self Defense

[5-Points 2,749]

That was reported in the beginning when the media was throwing sh*t against the wall and seeing what stuck, but Zimmerman was part of the neighborhood watch.

Yeah, I thought the HOA asked him to head it up. That's why they settled in the civil suit. I know SPD tried to recruit him for a program they had going but he declined.

[Voltaire 4,573]

but i thought he wasn't really neighborhood watch, that he was doing this on his own?

No. GZ was not just a member of the neighborhood watch, he was in charge of it (likely because he felt most strongly about it, for some its lip-service but he was clearly zealous and dedicated to it).

[Voltaire 4,573]

 

The evidence I've read about the trial goes like this. Tell me if I'm wrong.

 

GZ the neighborhood watchman follows this guy (maybe rightfully maybe wrongully). He gets out of his vehicle, calls 911, and while following him loses sight.

After losing sight he is walking back to his vehichle and Trayvon jumps out and confronts GZ. At that point GZ was no longer following him and at no point pulled a gun or tried to fight Trayvon or did anything of the sort. Trayvon attacked (thats the evidence) GZ knocking him to the ground where he was on top of him punching and pounding where GZ pulled his pistol and shot.

 

Is that or is that not what happened, because if so, that is not manslaughter? That is classic self defense. Wether you think the intial watchman activity may or may not have been warranted doesnt matter, at the point of where the confrontation acted both parties were at equal footing until Trayvon attacked.

This is why I'm not going to get bent out of shape if the jury lets him go. I understand the reasoning and it's a fair conclusion to make. GZ correctly identified somebody who wasn't a neighbor walking through his community. Props, that's a trick I wouldn't be able to pull off in mine. Of course, I have this remarkable ability where I can name (not just four) dozens of streets around my house without having to look at road signs and always know exactly where I am in my neighborhood.

 

Houseguests have a right to walk through the neighborhood without getting harassed. You can't assume someone is guilty and follow and confront them and then kill them. The kid was killed because GZ took himself too seriously and convinced himself Trayvon must have been up to no good. It's an unreasonable assumption, likely 99% of the people GZ couldn't identify walking through his neighborhood aren't criminals.

[Thornton Melon 546]

The guy that taught my Concealed Carry course - as conservative as they come, very pro self-defense - said Zimmerman was at fault for instigating the confrontation, and should be guilty of manslaughter/negligent homicide.

 

Personally, I'm glad there's one less POS nignog in the world.

[The Moz 69]

Who hacked pennie's account?

If Peenie is not racist I might have to start making black friends now.

[redtodd 7]

http://youtu.be/UgDuu6i8MtE

 

WTF is that about? Can the judge pester someone who has elected to take the 5th?

Is this idiot saying, "Yes, sir."

[The Moz 69]

There is.

 

GZ put his dumb ass in the situation where he wound up killing a kid. It may not be murder two, killing the kid isn't what he intended. but neighborhood watchmen don't get to stalk and kill innocent people and then just say "'oops, my bad" and expect to walk away.

Excuse Volty he sometimes forgets every place isn't Detroit

[redtodd 7]

The evidence I've read about the trial goes like this. Tell me if I'm wrong.

 

GZ the neighborhood watchman follows this guy (maybe rightfully maybe wrongully). He gets out of his vehicle, calls 911, and while following him loses sight.

After losing sight he is walking back to his vehichle and Trayvon jumps out and confronts GZ. At that point GZ was no longer following him and at no point pulled a gun or tried to fight Trayvon or did anything of the sort. Trayvon attacked (thats the evidence) GZ knocking him to the ground where he was on top of him punching and pounding where GZ pulled his pistol and shot.

 

Is that or is that not what happened, because if so, that is not manslaughter? That is classic self defense. Wether you think the intial watchman activity may or may not have been warranted doesnt matter, at the point of where the confrontation acted both parties were at equal footing until Trayvon attacked.

This is pretty much my view point. I have absolutely no problem with GZ approaching him and inquiring who he is. It could be a move, but it is easy for TM to say "fock off, I am visiting my Dad" and keep walking.

 

From what seems like is coming out from the trial, TM initiated the PHYSICAL part of the confrontation after that. This, IMHO, escalates the situation WAAAAAAAYYYYYY more than GZ approaching him VERBALLY.

 

It seems obvious, from the trial, that TM was beating GZ's ass into the ground which included GZ's head hitting the pavement. We hear cries for help (at this point, do we really believe there is a shot at this being TM?).

 

At this point, the only thing I criticize GZ on is that what if he just shot his gun in the air to scare him? I wonder if TM would have bolted off and frozen in fear......but then again, I have never had my head pounded into the ground to know whether I feared for my life. It is easy for me to say "shoot in the air to scare him" without really knowing what it is like to be there.

 

In the end, I would let him walk. I would not feel this way if one of the following happened (which is doesn't sound like it did):

 

- If GZ initiated the PHYSICAL part of the altercation.

- If GZ at some point was standing over TM while TM was defenseless and shot him (but is this even in question any more?)

 

But what the hell do I know?

[5-Points 2,749]

At this point, the only thing I criticize GZ on is that what if he just shot his gun in the air to scare him?

Did Joe Biden hack redtodd's account?

[IGotWorms 3,382]

You both have a point. I agree that you can believe that it was not self-defense, and further believe that it was manslaughter but not murder 2.

 

I think KSB's main point is that murder 2 is a horseshiot charge in this case and was included primarily to give the "compromise" option. Question for the lawyers: can the judge direct a not-guilty verdict for the murder charge but not the other charges?

I think so. I believe what would happen is the judge would toss out Murder 2 and the prosecution could then amend the indictment for manslaughter (which would also trigger the lesser included offenses like involuntary manslaughter).

[Phurfur 70]

White Hispanics," "Creepy-Ass Crackers," "Teenage Mammies," and "Suspicious A--holes who always get away" -- that is the vernacular of the George Zimmerman trial.

George Zimmerman faces life in jail as a jury considers second-degree murder charges against him for killing 17-year-old Trayvon Martin. But thanks to the media he is already sentenced to life in the American public's mind as a racist.

NBC edited a tape of Zimmerman’s call to police as he was following Martin to make him appear to be focused on Martin’s race.

The New York Times has referred to him in unique racial terms as a “white Hispanic." The terminology was necessary to have the story fit into a well-worn news narrative throughout American history from the Scottsboro Boys to Emmett Till to Rodney King – the black victim of white racism. Hispanic people can be as racist as black or white people in a country with a deep history of racism. But, apparently for the Times, Zimmerman's whiteness was important. It fit their good versus evil tale of a white racist killing an innocent black man.

 

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/07/11/white-hispanics-crackers-teenage-mammies-no-winners-in-martin-zimmerman-case/#ixzz2Ypo0BdYl

 

[Phurfur 70]

CNN) -- The George Zimmerman investigation was hijacked "in a number of ways" by outside forces, said the former police chief of Sanford, Florida.

Bill Lee, who testified Monday in Zimmerman's second-degree murder trial, told CNN's George Howell in an exclusive interview that he felt pressure from city officials to arrest Zimmerman to placate the public rather than as a matter of justice.

"It was (relayed) to me that they just wanted an arrest. They didn't care if it got dismissed later," he said. "You don't do that."

When Sanford police arrived on the scene on February 26, 2012, after Zimmerman fatally shot unarmed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, they conducted a "sound" investigation, and the evidence provided no probable cause to arrest Zimmerman at the scene, he said.

It had nothing to do with Florida's controversial "Stand Your Ground" law, he said; from an investigative standpoint, it was purely a matter of self-defense.

 

http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/10/justice/sanford-bill-lee-exclusive/index.html

 

 

Amerika

[RLLD 3,505]

This is pretty much my view point. I have absolutely no problem with GZ approaching him and inquiring who he is. It could be a ###### move, but it is easy for TM to say "fock off, I am visiting my Dad" and keep walking.

 

From what seems like is coming out from the trial, TM initiated the PHYSICAL part of the confrontation after that. This, IMHO, escalates the situation WAAAAAAAYYYYYY more than GZ approaching him VERBALLY.

 

It seems obvious, from the trial, that TM was beating GZ's ass into the ground which included GZ's head hitting the pavement. We hear cries for help (at this point, do we really believe there is a shot at this being TM?).

 

At this point, the only thing I criticize GZ on is that what if he just shot his gun in the air to scare him? I wonder if TM would have bolted off and frozen in fear......but then again, I have never had my head pounded into the ground to know whether I feared for my life. It is easy for me to say "shoot in the air to scare him" without really knowing what it is like to be there.

 

In the end, I would let him walk. I would not feel this way if one of the following happened (which is doesn't sound like it did):

 

- If GZ initiated the PHYSICAL part of the altercation.

- If GZ at some point was standing over TM while TM was defenseless and shot him (but is this even in question any more?)

 

But what the hell do I know?

 

Great post, perfectly explained.

[cbfalcon 824]

A vote for manslaughter is human nature of wanting to somehow compromise. Thats what the prosecution is relying on, not the evidence but playing the legal game and human condition.

 

This has slowly become my prediction by the way. He'll be found guilty of manslaughter.

 

If there is any question at all in a person's mind, or even a fair amount of compassion for the side you plan to vote against, there is a natural inclination to choose a middle ground option if one is available. Human nature is human nature after all.

[My Negro! 3]

Will the verdict effect black-hispanic relations?

[RLLD 3,505]

 

This has slowly become my prediction by the way. He'll be found guilty of manslaughter.

 

If there is any question at all in a person's mind, or even a fair amount of compassion for the side you plan to vote against, there is a natural inclination to choose a middle ground option if one is available. Human nature is human nature after all.

 

I think he is guilty of manslaughter, but its not a slam dunk, still I feel his actions are in line with that. Certainly, had he not been armed, the kid would be on trial right now for kicking the sh!t out of him, but the gun changed everything.

[phillybear 365]

 

This has slowly become my prediction by the way. He'll be found guilty of manslaughter.

 

If there is any question at all in a person's mind, or even a fair amount of compassion for the side you plan to vote against, there is a natural inclination to choose a middle ground option if one is available. Human nature is human nature after all.

A plea bargain is where you find middle ground. For a trial, it's guilty or innocent. There is no middle ground. There is no such thing as sort of guilty or a little bit guilty or well the evidence doesn't show it, but I think he did something wrong. You have to apply logic and make a choice.

[cbfalcon 824]

A plea bargain is where you find middle ground. For a trial, it's guilty or innocent. There is no middle ground. There is no such thing as sort of guilty or a little bit guilty or well the evidence doesn't show it, but I think he did something wrong. You have to apply logic and make a choice.

Yet the jury does in fact have a middle ground option of manslaughter that they can choose.

[KSB2424 3,086]

A plea bargain is where you find middle ground. For a trial, it's guilty or innocent. There is no middle ground. There is no such thing as sort of guilty or a little bit guilty or well the evidence doesn't show it, but I think he did something wrong. You have to apply logic and make a choice.

 

This whole case boils down to "Do you believe that Zimmerman acted (by way of the evidence) in self defense?" If your answer is no, then he's not guilty of manslaughter, he's guilty of Murder Two. If you think he could have acted in self defense (by the preponderance of the evidence) then you must acquit him of all charges.

 

Thats what the defense attornyees should hammer home to the jury. And its true. Finding some sort of middle ground to make yourself (a juror) feel better somehow is a cop out. I've served on two jurys (one murder and one drug trafficking). I've been a foreman on one. A juror is supposed to look the evidence, apply that to the law as directed by the judge and vote accordingly. You really shouldn't start guessing and playing games like "Well I just don't like this Zimmerman guy and feel he should be punished somehow" stuff. That is not how its supposed to work. A manslaughter conviction is a cop out in this case.

[phillybear 365]

Yet the jury does in fact have a middle ground option of manslaughter that they can choose.

But then they are choosing a "middle ground" just for the sake of middle ground. There is zero evidence that would support such a conviction. It's bullsh!t and a direct result of mamby pamby politically correct pussies that would fear for their lives if they did the just thing so they would throw an innocent man in jail because they don't want their addresses published and SSN broadcast over CNN, which is what already happened to Martin and his family. Cowards.

[Mungwater 588]

But then they are choosing a "middle ground" just for the sake of middle ground. There is zero evidence that would support such a conviction. It's bullsh!t and a direct result of mamby pamby politically correct pussies that would fear for their lives if they did the just thing so they would throw an innocent man in jail because they don't want their addresses published and SSN broadcast over CNN, which is what already happened to Martin and his family. Cowards.

Do you mean Zimmerman?

[Electric Mayhem 35]

I'm a big proponent of those who choose to carry concealed to have entensive training, including how to react in a multitude of situations, when to pull your firearm, defusing sutuations etc.

 

I was shocked (shocked I tell you!) how easy it was to obtain a concealed carry permit in CT. Hee's the muzzle, here's the grip, this is a revolver, go shoot some rounds - WAHLAH! (or 'voila' for the Frenchies) Go carry you some guns! The in structor even took an unloaded, cleared gun and WAIVED IT IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CLASS! I called him out on it and he said "The weapon is clearly unloaded, so it's fine". Doosh.

 

Anyway. To relate this to the GZ stuff, when he decided to carry a gun around with him on his watch rounds, he should have been formally trained to do so, and I'm not sure that he was. This isn't some guy doing his shopping and bopping around with a gun for protection in case someone does something to him - this is a guy that plans to put himself into adverse situations if they arise. Not that he should be an ex-cop, but he should have been more prepared to handle the situation that he put himself in, and he clearly wasn't. I know he took MMA classes, but that should have been supplementory to other skills.

 

Of course I haven't been following this case very closely, so for all I know he did have an assload of formal training and had his Neighborhood Watch merit badge, but he should have known exactly what to do when he saw TM before calling police (before being told by 911 dispatch to not follow). If he had simply announded himself as a member of the community on watch at any point (as many have mentioned) this could have been avoided.

 

TM was a doosh punk that unknowingly took his life into his hands when he decided to puff his chest and beat up GZ. GZ was defending himself when he pulled the trigger. I call it self defense and GZ should walk, but there should be some kind of ammendment to 'stand your ground' if you are putting yourself in adverse positions.

 

If a camper sees a bear, the bear sees the camper and comes after him and the camper shoots the bear dead, you side with the camper.

If a nature photographer looking to take pictures of bears finds onet, the bear attacks and the photos shoots it dead, you feel sorry for the bear.

[Phurfur 70]

Yet the jury does in fact have a middle ground option of manslaughter that they can choose.

but the prison time could be the same, 15-20 years, how is that middle ground.

[RLLD 3,505]

I'm a big proponent of those who choose to carry concealed to have entensive training, including how to react in a multitude of situations, when to pull your firearm, defusing sutuations etc.

 

I was shocked (shocked I tell you!) how easy it was to obtain a concealed carry permit in CT. Hee's the muzzle, here's the grip, this is a revolver, go shoot some rounds - WAHLAH! (or 'voila' for the Frenchies) Go carry you some guns! The in structor even took an unloaded, cleared gun and WAIVED IT IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CLASS! I called him out on it and he said "The weapon is clearly unloaded, so it's fine". Doosh.

 

Anyway. To relate this to the GZ stuff, when he decided to carry a gun around with him on his watch rounds, he should have been formally trained to do so, and I'm not sure that he was. This isn't some guy doing his shopping and bopping around with a gun for protection in case someone does something to him - this is a guy that plans to put himself into adverse situations if they arise. Not that he should be an ex-cop, but he should have been more prepared to handle the situation that he put himself in, and he clearly wasn't. I know he took MMA classes, but that should have been supplementory to other skills.

 

Of course I haven't been following this case very closely, so for all I know he did have an assload of formal training and had his Neighborhood Watch merit badge, but he should have known exactly what to do when he saw TM before calling police (before being told by 911 dispatch to not follow). If he had simply announded himself as a member of the community on watch at any point (as many have mentioned) this could have been avoided.

 

TM was a doosh punk that unknowingly took his life into his hands when he decided to puff his chest and beat up GZ. GZ was defending himself when he pulled the trigger. I call it self defense and GZ should walk, but there should be some kind of ammendment to 'stand your ground' if you are putting yourself in adverse positions.

 

If a camper sees a bear, the bear sees the camper and comes after him and the camper shoots the bear dead, you side with the camper.

If a nature photographer looking to take pictures of bears finds onet, the bear attacks and the photos shoots it dead, you feel sorry for the bear.

 

 

Well said.

 

I do not fault GM for following the kid, people want to make a big deal of this piece, but honestly....so-the-fock-what..... he can follow a dog, or whatever, he can walk where he pleases just as TM was doing.

 

TM turned and engaged GM instead of just walking home, therefore TM initiated a sequence of events toward his own demise. I hate it that TM died because of his own stupidity, but that is the reality.

 

Certain segments want to make this a racial issue because it feeds into the psychosis they carry, but in the end it's just one dumbsh!t kid with an attitude and one dumbsh!t guy with a gun, both doing something relatively stupid.

[phillybear 365]

Do you mean Zimmerman?

Whoops. Yep, it was Zimmerman and his family had their personal information publicized.

 

I don't spend much time self editing as I bang out posts in between waiting for reports to finish running.

[DankNuggs 305]

I'm a big proponent of those who choose to carry concealed to have entensive training, including how to react in a multitude of situations, when to pull your firearm, defusing sutuations etc.

 

I was shocked (shocked I tell you!) how easy it was to obtain a concealed carry permit in CT. Hee's the muzzle, here's the grip, this is a revolver, go shoot some rounds - WAHLAH! (or 'voila' for the Frenchies) Go carry you some guns! The in structor even took an unloaded, cleared gun and WAIVED IT IN THE DIRECTION OF THE CLASS! I called him out on it and he said "The weapon is clearly unloaded, so it's fine". Doosh.

 

Anyway. To relate this to the GZ stuff, when he decided to carry a gun around with him on his watch rounds, he should have been formally trained to do so, and I'm not sure that he was. This isn't some guy doing his shopping and bopping around with a gun for protection in case someone does something to him - this is a guy that plans to put himself into adverse situations if they arise. Not that he should be an ex-cop, but he should have been more prepared to handle the situation that he put himself in, and he clearly wasn't. I know he took MMA classes, but that should have been supplementory to other skills.

 

Of course I haven't been following this case very closely, so for all I know he did have an assload of formal training and had his Neighborhood Watch merit badge, but he should have known exactly what to do when he saw TM before calling police (before being told by 911 dispatch to not follow). If he had simply announded himself as a member of the community on watch at any point (as many have mentioned) this could have been avoided.

 

TM was a doosh punk that unknowingly took his life into his hands when he decided to puff his chest and beat up GZ. GZ was defending himself when he pulled the trigger. I call it self defense and GZ should walk, but there should be some kind of ammendment to 'stand your ground' if you are putting yourself in adverse positions.

 

If a camper sees a bear, the bear sees the camper and comes after him and the camper shoots the bear dead, you side with the camper.

If a nature photographer looking to take pictures of bears finds onet, the bear attacks and the photos shoots it dead, you feel sorry for the bear.

Good point,

 

simply saying 'im neighborhood watch' probably would have defused the situation.

 

TM saying 'im living with stepfather over there' would have done the same.

[Mungwater 588]

Whoops. Yep, it was Zimmerman and his family had their personal information publicized.

 

I don't spend much time self editing as I bang out posts in between waiting for reports to finish running.

His whole family is screwed, can you imagine any job interview they have for the rest of their lives?

[heavy-set 39]

people with guns subconsciously look for trouble.

 

no gun, George stops at the local taco bell and gets one of those cheesy crunchy gorditas and ,calls it a night.

 

gun, he looks for trouble, gets his arse whipped and kills someone.

 

 

 

 

i say he gets off scott free.

 

 

[RLLD 3,505]

Good point,

 

simply saying 'im neighborhood watch' probably would have defused the situation.

 

TM saying 'im living with stepfather over there' would have done the same.

 

I doubt just saying he was with neighborhood watch would have been enough, but perhaps.....

 

I do think that saying he lived there with his father would have helped.

 

Had the kid conducted himself in anything other than that of some wannabe thug, we would not be talking about this today, it was the kids decision to turn on some unknown guy in the dark that led to the outcome. I do not hold GM accountable for walking behind the kid, walking down the same path as the kid himself, what did TM think he owned that path and no one else should dare to walk behind him? please.....

[Bert 1,100]

 

people with guns subconsciously look for trouble.

 

no gun, George stops at the local taco bell and gets one of those cheesy crunchy gorditas and ,calls it a night.

 

gun, he looks for trouble, gets his arse whipped and kills someone.

 

 

 

 

i say he gets off scott free.

This is pure bullsh!t.

 

You need to watch less TV.

[The Moz 69]

Not saying it can't or doesn't happen as obviously it does. But if you try and person for Murder then when the trial is about to end and the state about to be pretty damn embarrassed you try and switch it up to Manslaughter in order to get some type of conviction knowing the Jury would NEVER find guilty on murder 2. So you give the Jury a option to convict on a lesser charge to help the jury feel better.

 

It is 1 of 2 things -- If Zimmerman was on top and had control then shot him -- or walked up to him and shot him point blank it is murder2 if Zimmerman shot him from his back while Martin was beating on him there is no other verdict than self defense - as proving he was in a life threatening situation is impossible -- the evidence at the least says the DA CANNOT prove he wasn't in a life threatening situation. Hell even the cops on the scene said they thought it was self defense.

 

That said there is a good chance he gets manslaughter just becasue of the Jury thinking - a kid was killed something has to happen - rather than doing there job as a jury according to the law.

 

One thing if Zimmerman walks he must be really innocent as the state has been throwing everything but the kitchen sink trying to get a conviction

[heavy-set 39]

 

This is pure bullsh!t.

 

You need to watch less TV.

no sir, that is str8 from the street , not tv

[KSB2424 3,086]

but in the end it's just one dumbsh!t kid with an attitude and one dumbsh!t guy with a gun, both doing something relatively stupid.

 

Pretty much this in a nutshell. Even though I think the evidence and the trial show that Zimmerman should be aquitted, and I think a coviction of manslaughter is a cop-out, I still think Zimmerman is probably a dumbass and I won't shed a tear for him if the jury gets it wrong.

 

My main venom in all of this goe towards the media. Specifially those like NBC who actually fabricated stuff (racially based) to sell internet hits. They made all this worse and more should be talked about that tangent of the story.

[Bert 1,100]

 

no sir, that is str8 from the street , not tv

Without the gun this would just be another case of black people's propensity toward violence when dealing with lifes events. Blaming the gun is the same as blaming the baby cam for the beating that black guy administered to the NJ mother.

[heavy-set 39]

 

 

Without the gun this would just be another case of black people's propensity toward violence when dealing with lifes events. Blaming the gun is the same as blaming the baby cam for the beating that black guy administered to the NJ mother.

but i am not blaming the gun, i am blaming the mentality of the person carrying the gun.

[Bert 1,100]

but i am not blaming the gun, i am blaming the mentality of the person carrying the gun.

And I'm blaming the menality of the person without the gun. RLLD nailed what happened in this case.

[The Moz 69]

Black families all over Miami Dade are making their Electronics lists now , mapping out best stores to loot, and window shopping today for what they will loot tomorrow. Store Clerk: Sir would you like to try that on Man: okay thank you Store Clerk: Sir would you like to purchase this item Man: nahhhh I just take dat sheet tommorow! Store clerk:

[Thornton Melon 546]

Is this idiot saying, "Yes, sir."

 

That's a woman???

[peenie 1,699]

That was reported in the beginning when the media was throwing sh*t against the wall and seeing what stuck, but Zimmerman was part of the neighborhood watch.

really? i had no idea. well, if the world is being informed properly now then there shouldn't be much strife about it.

i went to visit a friend who lives in a wealthy part of los angeles, in a hilly area and all day and night armed men travel around in trucks making sure the area is safe.

i felt both safe and nervous at the same time.

i think trayvon must not have understood who zimmerman was just as zimmerman didn't know who trayvon was.

it's more an unfortunate situation where i think some macho behavior was wrongly involved on both sides and both are paying for it.

[The Moz 69]

really? i had no idea. well, if the world is being informed properly now then there shouldn't be much strife about it.

i went to visit a friend who lives in a wealthy part of los angeles, in a hilly area and all day and night armed men travel around in trucks making sure the area is safe.

i felt both safe and nervous at the same time.

i think trayvon must not have understood who zimmerman was just as zimmerman didn't know who trayvon was.

it's more an unfortunate situation where i think some macho behavior was wrongly involved on both sides and both are paying for it.

What Macho behavior by GZ? If things went the way he has claimed and there is no reason to really think it did not. Then GZ followed from a distance to observe and called the police it was Trayvon who approached him in confrontation and subsequently kicked his ass while apparently GZ never threw a shot (or never had a chance to) ---- well other than the shooting.