Charleston SC Church Shooting

[NewbieJr 541]

keep showing his face and telling his story

 

in four or five days this kid will be the victim

god, I hope so. Just like Jeffrey Dahmer. I think thru should put him into general population of an all black prison

[RLLD 4,275]

god, I hope so. Just like Jeffrey Dahmer. I think thru should put him into general population of an all black prison

 

 

[wiffleball 4,797]

cNN is reporting the shooter is in the cell right next to the cop who shot the black guy.

[wiffleball 4,797]

I do think this nonsense about the Confederate flag is a tragic distraction. The flag didn't cause this nut job to kill people. But, on the other hand, losers get to keep their flag displayed.

[Mungwater 601]

I do think this nonsense about the Confederate flag is a tragic distraction. The flag didn't cause this nut job to kill people. But, on the other hand, losers get to keep their flag displayed.

They're using it to push their agenda. They're actually talking about removing it from the citadel's chapel too, from the inside.

 

Racism was 30% of this shooting, but mental illness is the main 70%. The kid even said he planned on shooting up a junior college a couple of days ago. He was going to kill some folks, need to talk about that instead of the race issue.

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

I do think this nonsense about the Confederate flag is a tragic distraction. The flag didn't cause this nut job to kill people. But, on the other hand, losers get to keep their flag displayed.

The flag should come down. They were traitors and they lost. What is it, the participation trophy of wars?

[Sho Nuff 720]

The flag is actually part of a memorial i believe.

 

That said, remove it...for now.

other than in museums, the flag, realistically, is the flag of a vanquished enemy of the United States.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

The flag is actually part of a memorial i believe.

 

That said, remove it...for now.

other than in museums, the flag, realistically, is the flag of a vanquished enemy of the United States.

Not just a vanquished enemy. It was a symbol of the ultimate racism from a long time ago.

 

Many folks down south need to understand that it was not "The War of Northern Aggression". The memorial should have the U.S. Flag or nothing.

[RLLD 4,275]

I do think this nonsense about the Confederate flag is a tragic distraction. The flag didn't cause this nut job to kill people. But, on the other hand, losers get to keep their flag displayed.

 

 

It's more a target of convenience. An opportunity to further a goal by leveraging an event.

 

Every time I see some idiot displaying that flag on their home or car I cringe. I wonder, do they have any idea about what they project through that display? I bet they go home and trash ISIS yet display the confederate flag. Would we allow the swastika to be on such display?

 

These idiots who promote the confederate flag as just as stupid as the idiots pretending slavery still exists, or the hidden hand of the white man is holding them back, You have these unbelievably stupid people, who are always so willing to put their stupidity on display. I say put both sets of retards in a pen somewhere and let them have at it so the rest of us can live in peace..... and quiet....

[naomi 360]

It's a crappy set of circumstances...the confederate flag remaining full-staff at the confederate memorial site on the state capitol grounds while the state and national flag are at half-staff atop the capitol building. It's not on a pulley so it can't be lowered and it takes a vote of the General Assembly before anything can be done with it. I don't have a 'side' with this but the hijacking of the confederate flag as a racist symbol does make it particularly burdensome that it remained full-staff. When I was in SC a neighbor who was rumored to be a Grand Dragon of the local KKK chapter had a huge prominent one in his front yard. So obviously there's that group...and then many others who connect to it as a cultural icon of the south in general, and being ardent believers in state's rights especially, not a symbol of white supremacist sentiment.

 

Not all these counters are air-tight but here's some context.

 

Because of the evolved racist connotations, I don't feel any protectionist sentiment toward the flag (ie., don't personally care if they remove it) but calling it a symbol of the ultimate racism of long ago isn't accurate, and the people who first carried it weren't genocidal like ISIS or the Nazis.

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

It's a crappy set of circumstances...the confederate flag remaining full-staff at the confederate memorial site on the state capitol grounds while the state and national flag are at half-staff atop the capitol building. It's not on a pulley so it can't be lowered and it takes a vote of the General Assembly before anything can be done with it. I don't have a 'side' with this but the hijacking of the confederate flag as a racist symbol does make it particularly burdensome that it remained full-staff. When I was in SC a neighbor who was rumored to be a Grand Dragon of the local KKK chapter had a huge prominent one in his front yard. So obviously there's that group...and then many others who connect to it as a cultural icon of the south in general, and being ardent believers in state's rights especially, not a symbol of white supremacist sentiment.

 

Not all these counters are air-tight but here's some context.

 

Because of the evolved racist connotations, I don't feel any protectionist sentiment toward the flag (ie., don't personally care if they remove it) but calling it a symbol of the ultimate racism of long ago isn't accurate, and the people who first carried it weren't genocidal like ISIS or the Nazis.

No they weren' t genocidal like the Nazis. They wanted to keep the slaves alive so they would do their wok for them and make money. Talk about leeches.

[Djgb13 2,339]

Still have yet to see any rioting or looting in my home state. Goes to show you the type of people who live there. Sure there are racists in every state. But as a majority, the white, black, and Indian folks there get along really well.

[naomi 360]

No they weren' t genocidal like the Nazis. They wanted to keep the slaves alive so they would do their wok for them and make money. Talk about leeches.

 

MYTH - Only Southerners owned slaves.

FACT - Entirely untrue. Many Northern civilians owned slaves. Prior to, during and even after the war.

Surprisingly, to many history impaired individuals, most Union Generals and staff had slaves to serve them! William T. Sherman had many slaves that served him until well after the war was over and did not free them until late in 1865.

U.S. Grant also had several slaves, who were only freed after the 13th amendment in December of 1865. When asked why he didn't free his slaves earlier, Grant stated "Good help is so hard to come by these days."

Contrarily, Confederate General Robert E. Lee freed his slaves (which he never purchased - they were inherited) in 1862!!! Lee freed his slaves several years before the war was over, and considerably earlier than his Northern counterparts. And during the fierce early days of the war when the South was obliterating the Yankee armies!

Lastly, and most importantly, why did NORTHERN States outlaw slavery only AFTER the war was over? The so-called "Emancipation Proclamation" of Lincoln only gave freedom to slaves in the SOUTH! NOT in the North! This pecksniffery even went so far as to find the state of Delaware rejecting the 13th Amendment in December of 1865 and did not ratify it (13th Amendment / free the slaves) until 1901!

 

MYTH - The South revered slavery.

FACT - A very interesting fact on slavery is that at the time the War of 1861 -1865 officially commenced, the Southern States were actually in the process of freeing all slaves in the South. Russia had freed its servants in 1859, and the South took great note of this. Had military intervention not been forced upon the South, a very different America would have been realized then as well as now.

 

MYTH - Only the North had men of color in their ranks.

FACT - Quite simply a major falsehood of history. Many blacks, both free and of their own will, joined the Confederate Army to fight for their beloved Southern home. Additionally, men of other ethnic extraction fought as well. Oriental, Mexican & Spanish men as well as Native American Indians fought with pride for the South.

Today, many men of color are members in the heritage group SCV - Sons Of Confederate Veterans. These men of color and pride rejoice in their heritage. The continued attacks on the Southern Nation, The Confederacy, and her symbols are a terrible outrage to these fine people. These attacks should be denounced with as much fervor as those who denounce the South.

 

_______________

The North tolerated slavery and acknowledged it as a Division Of Labor. The North made a vast fortune on slavery and it's commodities. It wasn't until the South decided to leave the Union that the North objected. The North knew it could not survive without the Southern money.

 

 

There's definite spin in there but the south didn't 'rise up' out of simple want to keep slaves. That's a distortion of history.

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

 

There's definite spin in there but the south didn't 'rise up' out of simple want to keep slaves. That's a distortion of history.

That's history being written by someone with an agenda. The overwhelming majority of the slaves were in the south and that's what the war was about. And the south were Traitors

[naomi 360]

Tariffs, not slavery, precipitated the American Civil War

[Magnificent Bastard 192]

Tariffs, not slavery, precipitated the American Civil War

So slavery had nothing to do with it then.

[naomi 360]

So slavery had nothing to do with it then.

 

You think there might be any tie in on the North's part with the wealth and thus threat (were secession to happen) of the south with it's strong export industry,,,industries utilizing slave labor?

 

My guess is this is right:

 

...shallow but unchallenged premise that the Civil War occurred because slavery was practiced in the South, and that righteous resolve to abolish the institution left the U.S. with no option other than a resort to arms. This is a myopic view with which many historical facts simply cannot be reconciled.

 

Slave related policy was a tool, a sphere to effect economic impact, so slavery was a part of it. That is an argument that is worth mining.

 

Defending saying "it was solely about slavery" with "so slavery had nothing to do with it" is like a 12 year old's thought process.

 

Consider the death involved. Would people rally behind that cause with their lives because they want to keep slaves, or something that seems more important than that? The vast majority of soldiers weren't slave owners.

[Flyfreak 84]

slaves were considered property (and not human) which the southern plantation owners needed to run successful businesses, that was the economic issue that was the root cause between northern and southern states (rights issue) and it went all the way back to the john q adams administration with each succeeding administration offering some form of compromise to appease the southern congressmen

 

the civil war was inevitable, but it took a strong willed president (lincoln) and his administration to finally separate the humanness of slaves from the property view that many people held, cause we all know that this was the real issue no matter how many different ways the southern congressmen tried to sell it

[RLLD 4,275]

So slavery had nothing to do with it then.

 

Something, but not THE thing. There were far bigger issues at play, slavery was the just the more apparent and vocal one.

 

Torrid and I had a weeklong thread debate years ago, each sourcing peer reviewed lectures and such, I think we agreed to disagree. But distilling it down to just slavery is an oversimplification.

[MDC 7,852]

Read the articles of secession and four declarations of causes. Many of them specifically mention slavery as a cause for secession, talk about the impact of slavery on the southern economy and refer to confederate states as the "slave owning" states.

 

Slavery may not have been the only cause of the civil war but it was the primary one.

[Flyfreak 84]

Read the articles of secession and four declarations of causes. Many of them specifically mention slavery as a cause for secession, talk about the impact of slavery on the southern economy and refer to confederate states as the "slave owning" states.

 

Slavery may not have been the only cause of the civil war but it was the primary one.

agree, the perception of southern slave owners and many other people during the 1700-1800's was that they were sub human/animals and were counted as property by their owners which removes the human factor concerning them as people and allowed them to be viewed as property

 

this view has to be factored into any discussion about states rights which was the major issue that caused the civil war

[ZeroTolerance 584]

Well, I don't think anyone has ever accused the NRA of being a classy organization...

 

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-executive-suggests-slain-charleston-pastor-blame-gun-043458974.html

 

DALLAS (Reuters) - A National Rifle Association executive in Texas has come under fire for suggesting that a South Carolina lawmaker and pastor slain with eight members of his congregation bears some of the blame for his opposition to permitting concealed handguns in church.

 

Houston-based lawyer Charles Cotton, listed as a national NRA board member on the gun lobby's website, made the comments in an online chat room he administers called texaschlforum.com, a discussion board devoted to gun rights and firearms issues.

In an online thread about Wednesday night's mass shooting at the Emanuel African Methodist Church in Charleston, Cotton said that one of the nine people slain, church pastor and Democratic state Senator Clementa Pinckney, had voted against legislation in 2011 that would have allowed concealed possession of handguns in restaurants, day-care centers and churches.

"Eight of his church members who might be alive if he had expressly allowed members to carry handguns in church are dead," Cotton wrote

[GobbleDog 1,010]

Read the articles of secession and four declarations of causes. Many of them specifically mention slavery as a cause for secession, talk about the impact of slavery on the southern economy and refer to confederate states as the "slave owning" states.

 

Slavery may not have been the only cause of the civil war but it was the primary one.

 

If the original Thirteen Colonies had been told "once you join, you can't leave" how many would have joined? That wasn't part of the deal. The South had every right to leave. Lincoln should have been hung as a war criminal, but John Booth fatefully exacted some justice. The war wasn't even needed to end slavery which was already becoming socially unpopular and would have gone away on it's own, probably before 1900.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Well, I don't think anyone has ever accused the NRA of being a classy organization...

 

http://news.yahoo.com/nra-executive-suggests-slain-charleston-pastor-blame-gun-043458974.html

 

Just focking awful and idiotic.

[frank 2,338]

No they weren' t genocidal like the Nazis. They wanted to keep the slaves alive so they would do their wok for them and make money. Talk about leeches.

You're thinking of the Chinese.

[Flyfreak 84]

 

If the original Thirteen Colonies had been told "once you join, you can't leave" how many would have joined? That wasn't part of the deal. The South had every right to leave. Lincoln should have been hung as a war criminal, but John Booth fatefully exacted some justice. The war wasn't even needed to end slavery which was already becoming socially unpopular and would have gone away on it's own, probably before 1900.

you're 100% wrong concerning your first point which cancels all your other points

 

the colonies were bound by the articles of confederation before the constitution was even conceived and the main feature of the articles and constitution that bound the colonies into one collective unit was called perpetual union, which means that colonies/states are not allowed to withdraw from the union

[GobbleDog 1,010]

perpetual union, which means that colonies/states are not allowed to withdraw from the union

 

The North's interpretation and illegal justification.

[MDC 7,852]

 

If the original Thirteen Colonies had been told "once you join, you can't leave" how many would have joined? That wasn't part of the deal. The South had every right to leave. Lincoln should have been hung as a war criminal, but John Booth fatefully exacted some justice. The war wasn't even needed to end slavery which was already becoming socially unpopular and would have gone away on it's own, probably before 1900.

None of this has anything to do with the fact that slavery was the primary reason the confederate states tried to secede.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

It's a crappy set of circumstances...the confederate flag remaining full-staff at the confederate memorial site on the state capitol grounds while the state and national flag are at half-staff atop the capitol building. It's not on a pulley so it can't be lowered and it takes a vote of the General Assembly before anything can be done with it. I don't have a 'side' with this but the hijacking of the confederate flag as a racist symbol does make it particularly burdensome that it remained full-staff. When I was in SC a neighbor who was rumored to be a Grand Dragon of the local KKK chapter had a huge prominent one in his front yard. So obviously there's that group...and then many others who connect to it as a cultural icon of the south in general, and being ardent believers in state's rights especially, not a symbol of white supremacist sentiment.

 

Not all these counters are air-tight but here's some context.

 

Because of the evolved racist connotations, I don't feel any protectionist sentiment toward the flag (ie., don't personally care if they remove it) but calling it a symbol of the ultimate racism of long ago isn't accurate, and the people who first carried it weren't genocidal like ISIS or the Nazis.

I get what you're saying about it being a cultural symbol and I don't necessarily disagree with you...but has it really been "hijacked" as a racist symbol?

 

The confederacy wanted slavery. A big part of what they fought for was the continued subjugation of the black race. That's just a fact. You can't will it away or gloss over it.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

 

There's definite spin in there but the south didn't 'rise up' out of simple want to keep slaves. That's a distortion of history.

You should really be more careful about what you read and your willingness to accept things that fit your preconceived notion even when they're clearly pushing an agenda. I would think as a journalism student you would've learned that

[IGotWorms 4,063]

 

If the original Thirteen Colonies had been told "once you join, you can't leave" how many would have joined? That wasn't part of the deal. The South had every right to leave. Lincoln should have been hung as a war criminal, but John Booth fatefully exacted some justice. The war wasn't even needed to end slavery which was already becoming socially unpopular and would have gone away on it's own, probably before 1900.

Wow that's pretty focked up. Celebrating Lincoln's assassination? Get ahold of yourself man.

[Djgb13 2,339]

Many of you have a lot of misconceptions about the civil war. I too thought the reason was over slaves. That was until I started learning about the civil war from southern historians in middle school (I'm from SC so the civil war is a big thing there). It was about states rights, taxes, and tariffs. In fact, South Carolina had threatened to secede before the civil war over a tariff placed on them. The north had in fact been trying to impose more taxes and tariffs in the southern states which lead to them being very unhappy. The slave agenda was the final straw even though a lot of people in the south didn't own slaves anymore. More of the social elites did. Still, slavery was wrong and that is a fact but the war was about more than that

[vuduchile 1,947]

 

If the original Thirteen Colonies had been told "once you join, you can't leave" how many would have joined? That wasn't part of the deal. The South had every right to leave. Lincoln should have been hung as a war criminal, but John Booth fatefully exacted some justice. The war wasn't even needed to end slavery which was already becoming socially unpopular and would have gone away on it's own, probably before 1900.

Is this really your view on Lincoln? Is it widely held wherever you live?

[Mungwater 601]

Is this really your view on Lincoln? Is it widely held wherever you live?

He's always been a douche about lincoln, calling him a war criminal and he should have been hanged, etc. just ignore it and it goes away.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Many of you have a lot of misconceptions about the civil war. I too thought the reason was over slaves. That was until I started learning about the civil war from southern historians in middle school (I'm from SC so the civil war is a big thing there). It was about states rights, taxes, and tariffs. In fact, South Carolina had threatened to secede before the civil war over a tariff placed on them. The north had in fact been trying to impose more taxes and tariffs in the southern states which lead to them being very unhappy. The slave agenda was the final straw even though a lot of people in the south didn't own slaves anymore. More of the social elites did. Still, slavery was wrong and that is a fact but the war was about more than that

A little more complicated than it was just about slavery. That part is true. However slavery was a substantial part of what the war was about and no amount of hemming and hawing can change that. Also it's a central part of what the confederacy and the confederate flag stood for

[Sho Nuff 720]

Somehow I don't think "southern historians" will necessarily give you an unbiased view. Even to middle schoolers.

[Djgb13 2,339]

A little more complicated than it was just about slavery. That part is true. However slavery was a substantial part of what the war was about and no amount of hemming and hawing can change that. Also it's a central part of what the confederacy and the confederate flag stood for

Oh definitely true. It was the final straw for the south. However, if that was the only issue I think the south would not have seceded but instead put up with the change. It was the culmination of multiple issues with that one being the final straw. Nowadays, the confederate flag doesn't stand for racism or hate. It's southern pride. I know plenty of black people from back home who fly the rebel flag along with whites. It's why a lot of blacks and whites get along so well where I'm from. We don't see hate anymore. Just another friend

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Somehow I don't think "southern historians" will necessarily give you an unbiased view. Even to middle schoolers.

It's basically a flat out lie. As MDC pointed out the articles of confederacy and declarations of confederacy explicitly say it was about slavery. Straight from the horse's mouth. How anyone can even attempt to deny that today is mind-boggling

 

http://www.civilwar.org/education/history/primarysources/declarationofcauses.html

 

http://www.civil-war.net/pages/ordinances_secession.asp

[Djgb13 2,339]

Somehow I don't think "southern historians" will necessarily give you an unbiased view. Even to middle schoolers.

The fact is they did. They didn't come out and say slavery had nothing to do with it cause it did and everyone knows it. However it's just one of multiple issues that the south had imposed on them that finally pissed them off enough to rebel

[JTB 52]

Somehow I don't think "southern historians" will necessarily give you an unbiased view. Even to middle schoolers.

This.

 

I admit, I'm not a Civil War buff, but I agree the Dr.'s resources may have a degree of bias.