Do you believe in an Afterlife?

[parrot 790]

If believing in the afterlife makes one a "better" person I'm all for it.

 

Yeah, that's great, until they figure it out. What if we spent the time and energy we do conditioning people into believing in some afterlife trying to get people to be "better" just because it's the right thing to do?

 

Or as Rust Cohle put it: "Yeah, well if the common good's gotta make up fairy tales then it's not good for anybody."

[TD Ryan2 316]

 

trying to get people to be "better" just because it's the right thing to do?

how do you know this? is it "better"?

 

I think answering this question is where/how the "fairy tales" begin... but just b/c some people go off the rails answering, doesn't mean it's not a question worth trying to answer

[Mookz 1,388]

What if there is one, and you find out that all your dead relatives could see what you've been doing in private?

 

First few hours of eternity could be a little uncomfortable.

[parrot 790]

how do you know this? is it "better"?

 

I think answering this question is where/how the "fairy tales" begin... but just b/c some people go off the rails answering, doesn't mean it's not a question worth trying to answer

 

I don't think I understand the question.

 

Is it better for people to develop an internal sense of right and wrong than one based on prospective rewards and/or punishments from a fantastical being, or spending eternity in a fantastical place? Yeah, I think it's better. I think the idea that we need the adult Santa Claus to keep people in check is not just silly, it's insulting to us as a race.

 

And there's also the whole deal where the supposed words of these fantastical beings are used to justify things like shooting people because they don't believe in your particular fantastical being.

[TD Ryan2 316]

 

Yeah, that's great, until they figure it out. What if we spent the time and energy we do conditioning people into believing in some afterlife trying to get people to be "better" just because it's the right thing to do?

 

Or as Rust Cohle put it: "Yeah, well if the common good's gotta make up fairy tales then it's not good for anybody."

 

then you agree that time and energy must be spent trying to get people to be "better"... one way or another, humans are not automatically nice, kind, and peaceful - there needs to be something to help us understand / learn that it's "better" to be that way... and I'm OK that you don't like "religions" to play that role - they've all shat all over themselves trying - but something has to... is it simply law and punishment?

[tanatastic 2,062]

Fact is, without fear of god the world would be anarchy and chaos. Its all that keeps most people in line. Our basic human instincts dont lend themselves kindly to peace love and happiness.

[hoytdwow 202]

Claiming certainty for any assertion that there is or isn't an afterlife (or God) is illogical and irrational both. Its simply not possible to know. It's a matter of faith either way.

[TD Ryan2 316]

 

"When you're dead, you don't know that you are dead. It is only difficult for others.

 

It is the same as when you are stupid."

[tanatastic 2,062]

Claiming certainty for any assertion that there is or isn't an afterlife (or God) is illogical and irrational both. Its simply not possible to know. It's a matter of faith either way.

Its also not possible to know if magic unicorns exist but from what i know about the world and logic, its safe to say they dont.

[vuduchile 1,947]

I had a girlfriend whose idea was that we are all eternal in that we live forever in the lives of the people we touch. I like that sentiment.

 

This is absolutely true IMO

 

I can confidently say I'll live on in this way.

 

I recognize the people who most strongly influenced me in my own actions, speech, ideas, and sense of humor all the time. I also see it it my sons already.

[parrot 790]

 

then you agree that time and energy must be spent trying to get people to be "better"... one way or another, humans are not automatically nice, kind, and peaceful - there needs to be something to help us understand / learn that it's "better" to be that way... and I'm OK that you don't like "religions" to play that role - they've all shat all over themselves trying - but something has to... is it simply law and punishment?

 

Actually I think people are pretty good to start with, then they learn to be sh!tty from other people, then we have to concoct systems to try and keep them from acting on the sh!tty stuff they learned.

 

Law, punishment, parents, society... I think these things do far more to keep people in line than religion even now, especially since IMO most people who claim to believe in God don't really anyway.

[hoytdwow 202]

Its also not possible to know if magic unicorns exist but from what i know about the world and logic, its safe to say they dont.

Yes but you're being a doosh about it and making silly analogies, that's why no one is listening to you.

[tanatastic 2,062]

Yes but you're being a doosh about it and making silly analogies, that's why no one is listening to you.

Im not trying to be dooshy, im making a legit analogy. Id even say a magic unicorn has an equally likely chance of existing as a bearded magical man in the sky who controls everything yet theres no proof of him. Possibly even more likely since horses already exist. Magic, nah that doesnt exist because if it did someone would have already used it to take over the world.

 

Oh and they are listening to me.

[Voltaire 5,528]

Tantastic makes it embarrassing to agree with him.

[tanatastic 2,062]

Tantastic makes it embarrassing to agree with him.

LOL thats one of the methods to my madness. Im an ends justify the means kind of guy. Like Adam Sandler telling the story of the little puppy that lost his way. You may be dumber for hearing it, but you might also agree with my point.

[penultimatestraw 473]

What if there is one, and you find out that all your dead relatives could see what you've been doing in private?

 

First few hours of eternity could be a little uncomfortable.

Until you realize everyone else masturbates at funerals, too. Then you're enlightened.

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

I don't think I understand the question.

 

Is it better for people to develop an internal sense of right and wrong than one based on prospective rewards and/or punishments from a fantastical being, or spending eternity in a fantastical place? Yeah, I think it's better. I think the idea that we need the adult Santa Claus to keep people in check is not just silly, it's insulting to us as a race.

 

And there's also the whole deal where the supposed words of these fantastical beings are used to justify things like shooting people because they don't believe in your particular fantastical being.

How much time have you really devoted to thinking about right vs. wrong? Probably most of us learned from our parents/mentors, with slight modification along the way. Is it much different to learn morality from a book written by men, even if the punishment and rewards are imaginary?

[penultimatestraw 473]

 

Actually I think people are pretty good to start with, then they learn to be sh!tty from other people, then we have to concoct systems to try and keep them from acting on the sh!tty stuff they learned.

 

Law, punishment, parents, society... I think these things do far more to keep people in line than religion even now, especially since IMO most people who claim to believe in God don't really anyway.

That's a pretty good way to think of humanity. Although I don't believe people are inherently evil, we are selfishly motivated. At some point your needs are always going to conflict with others, which is where morality steps in to tell us how to act.

 

Agree completely with your second statement, though all those things are heavily influenced by religion.

[cmh6476 1,154]

absolutely

[parrot 790]

That's a pretty good way to think of humanity. Although I don't believe people are inherently evil, we are selfishly motivated. At some point your needs are always going to conflict with others, which is where morality steps in to tell us the way to act.

 

Agree completely with your second statement, though all those things are heavily influenced by religion.

 

Of course they are, because religion is so pervasive, but Christianity gets a lot of credit for ideas that were around long before Mary dropped Jesus in the manger. I believe those things would be just as powerful in its absence, but we'll never know that.

 

There's no question we need some type of moral code, the question is why it has to come from some ethereal being or place to carry weight? I don't believe it does. My own belief is that any system of morality built on lies and superstition designed to manipulate people ain't very moral to begin with.

[tanatastic 2,062]

 

Of course they are, because religion is so pervasive, but Christianity gets a lot of credit for ideas that were around long before Mary dropped Jesus in the manger. I believe those things would be just as powerful in its absence, but we'll never know that.

 

There's no question we need some type of moral code, the question is why it has to come from some ethereal being or place to carry weight? I don't believe it does. My own belief is that any system of morality built on lies and superstition designed to manipulate people ain't very moral to begin with.

Word.

[parrot 790]

How much time have you really devoted to thinking about right vs. wrong? Probably most of us learned from our parents/mentors, with slight modification along the way. Is it much different to learn morality from a book written by men, even if the punishment and rewards are imaginary?

 

I don't spend a lot of time thinking about it, and most of it was learned from my parents; mostly my single mother who explicitly DID NOT believe in God, based on her own sh!tty childhood. But somehow she managed to instill a pretty strong morality in all four of her kids without lording (religion pun!) eternal damnation over our head. My Dad was raised Catholic but I don't recall him ever bringing up God much either. Their idea of a moral code was "Don't be an a$$hole!" and it stuck for the most part.

[Herbivore 1,222]

You wasted life, why wouldn't you waste the afterlife?

modest mouse!

[southcarolina 166]

Heaven above, hell below.

Toadies!

[southcarolina 166]

 

 

SKYCAKE!!!!!!

[naomi 361]

I wouldn't be a Christian if it was a system that required me to be 'good' to escape eternal damnation. I'm generally lawful and ethical (maybe different life circumstances would have impacted that) despite knowledge of Judeo-Christian morality. I agree with Tim Keller here: "The Christian is not better in any way than a pagan. There are probably many pagans who have lived more moral lives than the Christian. In fact the Christian believes Himself not morally fit for God - a person who's so desperately broken that unless Jesus Christ dies under the wrath of God in my place, I can never be reconciled to God and have fellowship with Him." There are lots of people wiser than us, lots of people who are more moral than we are, people who are more devoted to their religion than we are. If a person claims anything different, he is missing the gospel."

 

There are some aspects of my moral code that I wouldn't have if I wasn't a Christian though, that is actually true. But having and following that morality does nothing to keep me on a path to a certain afterlife. According to the bible any time a person is accounted righteous, it's imputed righteousness. His slate is only (only ever) wiped clean because someone else paid his debt. In of ourselves? "There is none righteous, no, not one." We can't pay it. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." We judge by the outward, God knows the heart intimately. The crux, literally, of Christianity is what Christ did.

 

The manipulation argument doesn't apply to the gospel.

 

As far as intellectual curiosity and Christian, biblical faith (which I'll add is believing you know while absolutely understanding that it's not a matter of the reasoning capabilities of the other person why they don't know), we owe a lot of our modern world to Michael Faraday who was a biblical literalist. His intellectual curiosity wasn't curbed a bit. He's not the only one but he's one of the best examples of how the social pressure and bluster of today about what's necessary to be a robust, innovative thinker has a profoundly wrong yet basically religious zeal in pushing that you have to have certain humanistic worldviews.

[jerryskids 7,195]

I wouldn't be a Christian if it was a system that required me to be 'good' to escape eternal damnation. I'm generally lawful and ethical (maybe different life circumstances would have impacted that) despite knowledge of Judeo-Christian morality. I agree with Tim Keller here: "The Christian is not better in any way than a pagan. There are probably many pagans who have lived more moral lives than the Christian. In fact the Christian believes Himself not morally fit for God - a person who's so desperately broken that unless Jesus Christ dies under the wrath of God in my place, I can never be reconciled to God and have fellowship with Him." There are lots of people wiser than us, lots of people who are more moral than we are, people who are more devoted to their religion than we are. If a person claims anything different, he is missing the gospel."

 

There are some aspects of my moral code that I wouldn't have if I wasn't a Christian though, that is actually true. But having and following that morality does nothing to keep me on a path to a certain afterlife. According to the bible any time a person is accounted righteous, it's imputed righteousness. His slate is only (only ever) wiped clean because someone else paid his debt. In of ourselves? "There is none righteous, no, not one." We can't pay it. "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away." We judge by the outward, God knows the heart intimately. The crux, literally, of Christianity is what Christ did.

 

The manipulation argument doesn't apply to the gospel.

 

As far as intellectual curiosity and Christian, biblical faith (which I'll add is believing you know while absolutely understanding that it's not a matter of the reasoning capabilities of the other person why they don't know), we owe a lot of our modern world to Michael Faraday who was a biblical literalist. His intellectual curiosity wasn't curbed a bit. He's not the only one but he's one of the best examples of how the social pressure and bluster of today about what's necessary to be a robust, innovative thinker has a profoundly wrong yet basically religious zeal in pushing that you have to have certain humanistic worldviews.

 

You practice an entirely depressing and unmotivating sect of Christianity. I have no idea why anyone would do so, except that I believe that we all make choices which optimize our perception of happiness, so somehow this masochistic religion makes you feel good about yourself.

[GobbleDog 1,018]

Afterlife is a young man's delima. By mid-40's and if not too religious, people realize they're going to the same place the bugs hitting the windshield.

 

Be happy while ur here. Have a banana...

[Artista 460]

Afterlife is a young man's delima. By mid-40's and if not too religious, people realize they're going to the same place the bugs hitting the windshield.

 

Be happy while ur here. Have a banana...

I would, if only I remembered to get this that was on my list today..

[naomi 361]

You practice an entirely depressing and unmotivating sect of Christianity. I have no idea why anyone would do so, except that I believe that we all make choices which optimize our perception of happiness, so somehow this masochistic religion makes you feel good about yourself.

 

It's not depressing and unmotivating, and those are basic points of protestant Christianity (and held by bible believers pre-reformation).

 

It's anti self-satisfaction and self-righteousness, yes, but it's not pro self-flagellation...that would also be effort made to secure being in God's good graces. It's not anti seeing people's strengths and appreciating different talents and character. It's certainly not anti having a grateful heart.

 

I'll defer to Charles Spurgeon:

 

First, to whom does God tell us to look for salvation? Oh, does it not lower the pride of man when we hear the Lord say, "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth"? It is not "Look to your priest, and be ye saved." If you did, there would be another god, and besides him there would be someone else. It is not "Look to yourself." If so, then there would be a being who might arrogate some of the praise of salvation. But it is "Look unto me." How frequently you who are coming to Christ look to yourselves. "Oh!" you say, "I do not repent enough." That is looking to yourself. "I do not believe enough." That is looking to yourself. "I am too unworthy." That is looking to your self. "I cannot discover," says another, "that I have any righteousness." It is quite right to say that you have not any righteousness, but it is quite wrong to look for any.

 

God says, "Look unto me." He would have you turn your eyes off yourself and look unto Him. The hardest thing in the world is to turn a man's eyes off himself; as long as he lives, the tendency remains to turn his eyes inside and look at him self, whereas God says, "Look unto me." From the cross of Calvary, where the bleeding hands of Jesus drop mercy; from the Garden of Gethsemane, where the bleeding pores of the Saviour sweat pardons, the cry comes: "Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth." From Calvary's summit, where Jesus cries, "It is finished," I hear the shout "Look, and be saved."

 

But there comes a vile cry from our soul, "No, look to yourself!" Ah, my hearer, look to yourself and you will be damned. As long as you look to yourself there is no hope for you. Salvation is not a consideration of what you are, but a consideration of what God is, and what Christ is. It is looking from yourself to Jesus. Oh! how many misunderstand the gospel, imagining that righteousness qualifies them to come to Christ, whereas sin is the only qualification for a man to come to Jesus.

 

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1995/01/salvation-gods-greatest-work

[IGotWorms 4,063]

 

You practice an entirely depressing and unmotivating sect of Christianity. I have no idea why anyone would do so, except that I believe that we all make choices which optimize our perception of happiness, so somehow this masochistic religion makes you feel good about yourself.

She's an ascetic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism

[jerryskids 7,195]

She's an ascetic. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asceticism

Agreed. Like I said, she must get some reward out of it.

 

 

It's not depressing and unmotivating, and those are basic points of protestant Christianity (and held by bible believers pre-reformation).

 

It's anti self-satisfaction and self-righteousness, yes, but it's not pro self-flagellation...that would also be effort made to secure being in God's good graces. It's not anti seeing people's strengths and appreciating different talents and character. It's certainly not anti having a grateful heart.

 

I'll defer to Charles Spurgeon:

 

 

https://www.ministrymagazine.org/archive/1995/01/salvation-gods-greatest-work

 

Yeah sorry, that's not helping to make your case against depressing and unmotivating.

[naomi 361]

"The practitioners of these religions eschewed worldly pleasures and led an abstinent lifestyle, in the pursuit of redemption or spirituality."

 

If all my post said was "I love grapes" and an ascetic is someone who hates grapes...that's the role the bolded plays.

 

Let us reason

 

[naomi 361]

Yeah sorry, that's not helping to make your case against depressing and unmotivating.

 

That's why the words to Amazing Grace are such that they are.

 

Blinded...could not see the wretch that he was, now he sees, bowled over by God's amazing grace. Newton's heart sounded pretty dynamically effected to me. The Good News. If you don't think you need it, it's meh news. If you're irked by the thought you need it, it's irksome news.

[jerryskids 7,195]

 

That's why the words to Amazing Grace are such that they are.

 

Blinded...could not see the wretch that he was, now he sees, bowled over by God's amazing grace. Newton's heart sounded pretty dynamically effected to me. The Good News. If you don't think you need it, it's meh news. If you're irked by the thought you need it, it's irksome news.

 

"God's amazing grace," if he was part of the pre-ordained saved. If not, sorry about that, but you are burning in hell no matter what you do.

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Agreed. Like I said, she must get some reward out of it.

 

 

Yeah sorry, that's not helping to make your case against depressing and unmotivating.

I dunno, it's some kind of weird psychological thing. Like you know how you get a sense of satisfaction when you make yourself do a particularly tough workout or you're especially strict in eating healthy for a while? It's like that except her entire life

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Ironically it's extremely self-righteous although supposedly that's like the greatest sin or something

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

Naomi, I love you, but your Christianity appalls me. That version of God is like someone who has Stockholm syndrome. It really angers me when I meet good people who suffer the mental scars of such a hateful creed.

 

 

I was born I wretched sin, damned by nature? Well if that's so, who's fault is that? Id say it's the creator.

 

And so he splits of a part of his divine self, sends him to earth as a man, allows himself to be brutally murdered, and this somehow creates a debt for which I am supposed to be grateful? Even though this happened 2000 years before I was born?

 

And now, for this "service" 2000 years later, I owe this god my devotion, my article, and yes, 10% of my worldly produce according to most cults? Oh, and I am supposed to actually LOVE this sick twist?

 

if I had a child, and constantly screamed at and denigrated it for things it cannot help, like pooping and crying, people would think I'm an ass. If I then taught it that the sacrifice of me feeding it was an act of grace, and it must love me and give money, people would think I'm an ass.

 

If I say there and watched it suffer even though I have the power to prevent it, DCS would take the kid away.

 

And they would all be right.

 

If that God exists, I spit in his eye. He is nothing but a master of slaves. If he exists and gives a crap about my love, he will have to earn it like anyone else. Love given through fear or faith or obligation, and not freely given through choice and reason, is worse than worthless. It is an insult.

 

Recently, I asked my girlfriend to explain her religion to me. She did. She then asked what I believe. I told her I was raised Christian but no longer believe. She asked me to explain Christianity to her. She has heard of it, but only in very vague sense.

 

Explaining that crock of moronic crap to someone who has never heard it before really drives home how absurd it is. Really, sit down and just give a five minute synopsis of Christian doctrine and read how dumb and illogical it is.

 

I would rather follow Ancient Greek or Norse paganism. At least there is some logical consistency there.

[naomi 361]

I dunno, it's some kind of weird psychological thing. Like you know how you get a sense of satisfaction when you make yourself do a particularly tough workout or you're especially strict in eating healthy for a while? It's like that except her entire life

 

Not sure where you get the strictness sense from. In what's been posted or my life. Just honestly never sure where you get that.

[naomi 361]

Titans, that's a really thought provoking post, and I'll respond when I have time for a thoughtful reply.