Coronavirus - Doomsday

[Reality 2,710]

We're all being contact traced daily, the device is in your pocket.

[vuduchile 1,940]

MI restaurants must now record names and phone numbers of everyone eating in their establishments.  

[Strike 3,949]

Just now, vuduchile said:

MI restaurants must now record names and phone numbers of everyone eating in their establishments.  

I'm not sure the requirements here but one restaurant that we go to takes that information.  None of the others do.  We're right on the border of three counties so it could be county specific.  Not sure but find it interesting.   And don't mind providing that.   I think contact tracing is a good idea on some level.  If they want me to install an app on my phone so they can follow me around that won't happen but asking me for my name/# at a restaurant?  I'm ok with that.

[TimmySmith 2,782]

12 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

MI restaurants must now record names and phone numbers of everyone eating in their establishments.  

See how easy it is to create a Nazi.  And they don't even realize it. 

[TimHauck 1,795]

42 minutes ago, Strike said:

We have a vaccine for the flu.  We don't have one for Covid.  That's why it's important for people to be aware of the Covid and act accordingly, especially if they are in one of the at risk groups.  But, once we have a vaccine, it will be just like the flu.  So the comparison to the flu is apt.  We just don't have all the tools for fighting Covid that we have for the flu.

I agree, I actually was thinking about making a comment about there not being a vaccine.   "Once we have a vaccine" is a big if though (and also implies people will actually take it)

 

32 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Ah yes, St. Joe could have killed the Covid had he been president months ago.  Double the testing and more masks, how has that worked in the rest of the world?

Hard to tell if this is your typical troll or if you really are this naive.  

Well to be fair most of the rest of the world has had fewer deaths per capita...   I'm sure there still would have probably been 100k deaths minimum even with Biden, most likely a similar number as we had though.

 

24 minutes ago, vuduchile said:

MI restaurants must now record names and phone numbers of everyone eating in their establishments.  

If you pay with a credit card they already have your name.  Not too hard to get address, etc. once you have that.

[drobeski 3,061]

9 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I agree, I actually was thinking about making a comment about there not being a vaccine.   "Once we have a vaccine" is a big if though (and also implies people will actually take it)

 

Well to be fair most of the rest of the world has had fewer deaths per capita...   I'm sure there still would have probably been 100k deaths minimum even with Biden, most likely a similar number as we had though.

 

If you pay with a credit card they already have your name.  Not too hard to get address, etc. once you have that.

They death numbers the media and its sheep repeat are a lie.  The CDC put out the real numbers not too long ago. Something like 9k. 

Hope that science helped. 

[Hawkeye21 1,848]

Canceled the Thursday appointment and decided to head into a clinic today. Wife wants it done sooner. Since I have a symptom she and my so. now has to stay home from school until I get results back. 

[TimHauck 1,795]

11 minutes ago, drobeski said:

They death numbers the media and its sheep repeat are a lie.  The CDC put out the real numbers not too long ago. Something like 9k. 

Hope that science helped. 

lol that was only the ones where covid was the ONLY cause listed.    Most people have more than 1 cause listed (not talking about covid-related).

[drobeski 3,061]

3 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

lol that was only the ones where covid was the ONLY cause listed.    Most people have more than 1 cause listed (not talking about covid-related).

Right, so the virus was the cause of only 9k, the rest, the virus was a contributor to the cause of death.  Let's see what the other contributors were. No ? Doesn't that matter or no because OMB ? 

[jerryskids 5,169]

4 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

lol that was only the ones where covid was the ONLY cause listed.    Most people have more than 1 cause listed (not talking about covid-related).

Ask yourself this:  say you have a serious medical condition, that’s all you know about it, and you have to choose one country in the world to get the best medical care possible.  Which country do you choose?  The US of course, and it isn’t close.

Now ask yourself:  does it make sense that the undisputed best country in the world for advanced medical care would have 20% of the world’s Covid deaths?  If you have two brain cells to rub together and that does NOT make sense, then where is the discrepancy?  Could it be in the reporting?  The testing?  Federal incentives to label things Covid?  Some combo?  

[vuduchile 1,940]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

I'm not sure the requirements here but one restaurant that we go to takes that information.  None of the others do.  We're right on the border of three counties so it could be county specific.  Not sure but find it interesting.   And don't mind providing that.   I think contact tracing is a good idea on some level.  If they want me to install an app on my phone so they can follow me around that won't happen but asking me for my name/# at a restaurant?  I'm ok with that.

 

42 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

I agree, I actually was thinking about making a comment about there not being a vaccine.   "Once we have a vaccine" is a big if though (and also implies people will actually take it)

 

Well to be fair most of the rest of the world has had fewer deaths per capita...   I'm sure there still would have probably been 100k deaths minimum even with Biden, most likely a similar number as we had though.

 

If you pay with a credit card they already have your name.  Not too hard to get address, etc. once you have that.

It’s all fine and dandy until Sindee with an S calls your house because you were exposed during lunch hour at the Beaver Palace.  

[drobeski 3,061]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Ask yourself this:  say you have a serious medical condition, that’s all you know about it, and you have to choose one country in the world to get the best medical care possible.  Which country do you choose?  The US of course, and it isn’t close.

Now ask yourself:  does it make sense that the undisputed best country in the world for advanced medical care would have 20% of the world’s Covid deaths?  If you have two brain cells to rub together and that does NOT make sense, then where is the discrepancy?  Could it be in the reporting?  The testing?  Federal incentives to label things Covid?  Some combo?  

[Reality 2,710]

Real death total much closer to the CDC number. I've read that close to 20k Covid deaths were people who were already on hospice care. If you tout the 200k Covid deaths number as legit, you're a focking moron. 

[TimHauck 1,795]

33 minutes ago, drobeski said:

Right, so the virus was the cause of only 9k, the rest, the virus was a contributor to the cause of death.  Let's see what the other contributors were. No ? Doesn't that matter or no because OMB ? 

Of course it matters. That's why most news stories about specific deaths (even by the evil MSM) mention underlying conditions.  But in most of the cases it seems the virus is what did them in.    Plenty of people live with high blood pressure or being fat just fine.     But apparently those are 2 of the leading factors that can result in a covid death.   Hopefully all this results in people trying to get healthier, but I doubt it.

If only 9k people died of covid and all those fat and old people would've died anyway, why does the CDC also say we've had over 200k excess deaths this year (actually 299K according to a report released a week and a half ago)?   (Yes, I'm sure there has been an increase in suicides and drug overdoses, but not that much).   I agree there have probably been some deaths counted as covid that shouldn't be, but there are likely also at-home covid deaths that should have been counted but weren't.  So I'm of the belief that the covid death number isn't too far off.

30 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Ask yourself this:  say you have a serious medical condition, that’s all you know about it, and you have to choose one country in the world to get the best medical care possible.  Which country do you choose?  The US of course, and it isn’t close.

Now ask yourself:  does it make sense that the undisputed best country in the world for advanced medical care would have 20% of the world’s Covid deaths?  If you have two brain cells to rub together and that does NOT make sense, then where is the discrepancy?  Could it be in the reporting?  The testing?  Federal incentives to label things Covid?  Some combo?  

I'd say it's a combo of a few things:

-Some other countries not properly reporting their deaths (such as China, Russia)

-A lot of fat people in the US

-A lot of old people in the US, and some democratic governors killing them by sending covid patients to nursing homes

 

The US has had comparable deaths/MM population as countries like the UK and Italy, so I don't think our numbers are too far off, especially if you remove some of the nursing home deaths that likely could have been avoided.

I don't know enough about other countries healthcare systems to answer your first question.  I would like to think the US would be near the top of the list, but I'm not so sure.   Quick googling reveals countries like Germany, Australia, Canada, and Denmark all have top health care systems.

 

[Strike 3,949]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Of course it matters. That's why most news stories about specific deaths (even by the evil MSM) mention underlying conditions.  But in most of the cases it seems the virus is what did them in.    Plenty of people live with high blood pressure or being fat just fine.     But apparently those are 2 of the leading factors that can result in a covid death.   Hopefully all this results in people trying to get healthier, but I doubt it.

 

Those same people would be fine if they had Covid but not the high blood pressure or being fat, right?  So we blame the Covid just because it was the last thing that happened? 

[Cdub100 3,366]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

I'm not sure the requirements here but one restaurant that we go to takes that information.  None of the others do.  We're right on the border of three counties so it could be county specific.  Not sure but find it interesting.   And don't mind providing that.   I think contact tracing is a good idea on some level.  If they want me to install an app on my phone so they can follow me around that won't happen but asking me for my name/# at a restaurant?  I'm ok with that.

Little by little... First it's taking name and numbers, then it's an app on your phone, then it's a bracelet around your wrist, then it's a chip implanted in your hand, then it's a device installed into your spine that can't be removed.

At least you got your cheeseburger.

[Cdub100 3,366]

14 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Of course it matters. That's why most news stories about specific deaths (even by the evil MSM) mention underlying conditions.  But in most of the cases it seems the virus is what did them in.   

You don't know that. You also don't know if influenza would have done them in as well.

[Strike 3,949]

Just now, Cdub100 said:

Little by little... First it's taking name and numbers, then it's an app on your phone, then it's a bracelet around your wrist, then it's a chip implanted in your hand, then it's a device installed into your spine that can't be removed.

At least you got your cheeseburger.

Eh.  it's a reasonable request, and I give them my landline phone number, which is largely ignored.  The virus will be a non issue within 6 months and they'll stop doing it.  You're welcome to your conspiracy theories.  In this case I think they're wrong except maybe in your state and a few others.  In any case, this is about as far as I'll go.  The slippery slope ends where I say it ends.

[TimHauck 1,795]

12 minutes ago, Strike said:

Those same people would be fine if they had Covid but not the high blood pressure or being fat, right?  So we blame the Covid just because it was the last thing that happened? 

Well yeah, pretty much.  That's the difference between an underlying condition and cause of death.    A hemophiliac gets shot in the leg and bleeds out, the gunshot is the cause of death, even if they wouldn't have died if they didn't have hemophilia.

[TimHauck 1,795]

2 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

You don't know that. You also don't know if influenza would have done them in as well.

Well we know according to Dr. Fauci and CDC estimates that the flu only "does in" about 30k-80k people a year.   So we know that the flu wouldn't have done in 200K of them.

[Cdub100 3,366]

1 minute ago, TimHauck said:

Well we know according to Dr. Fauci and CDC estimates that the flu only "does in" about 30k-80k people a year.   So we know that the flu wouldn't have done in 200K of them.

We also know that 200k number is junk.

[TimHauck 1,795]

Just now, Cdub100 said:

We also know that 200k number is junk.

Please explain where all the excess deaths this year (300K according to the CDC) came from then.   And don't say suicides because of the lockdown.   There were 48k in 2018, so even if those doubled to 100k (doubtful), that could potentially explain some of the difference between the 300K excess deaths and ~235k reported covid deaths, but that still leaves 200K-250K excess deaths unaccounted for.

[jerryskids 5,169]

16 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Well we know according to Dr. Fauci and CDC estimates that the flu only "does in" about 30k-80k people a year.   So we know that the flu wouldn't have done in 200K of them.

And if you have Covid and die of pneumonia, the death is labeled as?  

Hint:  if you have multiple contributing factors and one of them is Covid, in the US anyway, death = Covid.

[Cdub100 3,366]

10 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Please explain where all the excess deaths this year (300K according to the CDC) came from then.   And don't say suicides because of the lockdown.   There were 48k in 2018, so even if those doubled to 100k (doubtful), that could potentially explain some of the difference between the 300K excess deaths and ~235k reported covid deaths, but that still leaves 200K-250K excess deaths unaccounted for.

I don't have to explain anything. Go do some research. Find out why a guy killed on a motorcycle was listed as covid "because he tested positive" Why are hospitals getting $30k per covid death? There's plenty of information out there.

[MDC 5,877]

21 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Well we know according to Dr. Fauci and CDC estimates that the flu only "does in" about 30k-80k people a year.   So we know that the flu wouldn't have done in 200K of them.

That 30-80k figure is flu estimates. Confirmed flu deaths by the CDC is usually around 11k per year. CDC estimates of Covid deaths in 2020 are likely to be a lot higher than the 230k figure.

[TimHauck 1,795]

1 minute ago, Cdub100 said:

I don't have to explain anything. Go do some research. Find out why a guy killed on a motorcycle was listed as covid "because he tested positive" Why are hospitals getting $30k per covid death? There's plenty of information out there.

None of which explain 250k+ excess deaths this year.   A new virus does.

[TimHauck 1,795]

Many at home deaths that were covid likely not counted - https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/about-30-covid-deaths-may-not-be-classified-such

But hey, there was that guy on the motorcycle in Florida (who was removed from the count)

Like I said, I'm sure there were deaths counted as covid that shouldn't have been.  But there were also at home deaths not counted that probably were covid.   So given that most estimates put this year's excess deaths over 200k, or mostly in line with reported covid deaths, I think the numbers are pretty close.   (But also as mentioned I do also think that some of those could have been prevented if certain governors didn't send covid patients to nursing homes)

[Cdub100 3,366]

21 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

None of which explain 250k+ excess deaths this year.   A new virus does.

Sure a new virus on top of 80k influenza deaths. Makes sense. But back to the argument. You don't know if people would have died if they got the flu instead of covid and we all agree the numbers are junk. 

What we do know is the virus isn't as deadly as originally thought. and that it's safe to open back up. Sure maybe 80+ year old people should be extra cautious but everyone else should go back to normal everyday activities. We can keep the handwashing and social distance though that's just good hygiene. 

[drobeski 3,061]

17 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Many at home deaths that were covid likely not counted - https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/07/about-30-covid-deaths-may-not-be-classified-such

But hey, there was that guy on the motorcycle in Florida (who was removed from the count)

Like I said, I'm sure there were deaths counted as covid that shouldn't have been.  But there were also at home deaths not counted that probably were covid.   So given that most estimates put this year's excess deaths over 200k, or mostly in line with reported covid deaths, I think the numbers are pretty close.   (But also as mentioned I do also think that some of those could have been prevented if certain governors didn't send covid patients to nursing homes)

Likely lol 

[TimHauck 1,795]

8 minutes ago, Cdub100 said:

Sure a new virus on top of 80k influenza deaths. Makes sense. But back to the argument. You don't know if people would have died if they got the flu instead of covid and we all agree the numbers are junk. 

What we do know is the virus isn't as deadly as originally thought. and that it's safe to open back up. Sure maybe 80+ year old people should be extra cautious but everyone else should go back to normal everyday activities. We can keep the handwashing and social distance though that's just good hygiene. 

I don't disagree with your second paragraph.    Most things should be opened back up, with masks worn.   Large crowds probably still aren't good though, whether it be Trump rallies or BLM protests.

But again, we do know that 200k people wouldn't have died from flu.   According to the CDC the highest yearly estimated flu deaths since 2010 was 61k, most were 25k-40k.   And oh yeah the majority of the covid deaths we've had so far have been March-September, so not even really during typical flu season.   

[nobody 2,031]

The number of deaths is pretty predictable each year.  We are about 200k above expected.  Those people are dying of something.

If your motivation for denying that number is you want to open up and do away with masks, you'll need a better argument than just saying the number of deaths is BS.  I'd probably try to argue that we hastened some deaths, but the death rate will go down in coming years because we've essentially culled the herd of people who were going to die in the next few years.  Then I'd attempt to back that up with something along the lines that the country is better off going the herd immunity route because the people dying of Covid + comorbidities are net takers from the system.

It's a cold approach, but just denying the deaths are occuring is probably a losing tactic unless you can explain why we have so many excess deaths.

[drobeski 3,061]

7 minutes ago, nobody said:

The number of deaths is pretty predictable each year.  We are about 200k above expected.  Those people are dying of something.

If your motivation for denying that number is you want to open up and do away with masks, you'll need a better argument than just saying the number of deaths is BS.  I'd probably try to argue that we hastened some deaths, but the death rate will go down in coming years because we've essentially culled the herd of people who were going to die in the next few years.  Then I'd attempt to back that up with something along the lines that the country is better off going the herd immunity route because the people dying of Covid + comorbidities are net takers from the system.

It's a cold approach, but just denying the deaths are occuring is probably a losing tactic unless you can explain why we have so many excess deaths.

Link to the excess.... I've read differently 

[MTSkiBum 1,593]

8 minutes ago, drobeski said:

Link to the excess.... I've read differently 

 

During the timeframe under study, there were over 1.3 million deaths in the U.S., and 225,530 excess deaths

https://www.foxnews.com/health/coronavirus-us-excess-deaths-study

 

[drobeski 3,061]

Where we at up until end of October? Will the year totals be drastically different. 

[MTSkiBum 1,593]

8 minutes ago, drobeski said:

Where we at up until end of October? Will the year totals be drastically different. 

 

Based on this study, showing more than 225,000 excess deaths over a 5-month period, the total number of excess deaths for 2020 — compared with previous years — is likely to be greater than 400,000, Dr. Howard Bauchner, editor-in-chief of JAMA, and Dr. Phil Fontanarosa, executive editor of JAMA, wrote in an editorial accompanying the study. (This estimate assumes that a similar number of excess deaths will occur over the period from August through December as occurred from March through August.) 

https://www.livescience.com/extra-deaths-covid-19-2020.html

[drobeski 3,061]

8 minutes ago, MTSkiBum said:

 

Based on this study, showing more than 225,000 excess deaths over a 5-month period, the total number of excess deaths for 2020 — compared with previous years — is likely to be greater than 400,000, Dr. Howard Bauchner, editor-in-chief of JAMA, and Dr. Phil Fontanarosa, executive editor of JAMA, wrote in an editorial accompanying the study. (This estimate assumes that a similar number of excess deaths will occur over the period from August through December as occurred from March through August.) 

https://www.livescience.com/extra-deaths-covid-19-2020.html

Thankfully that Dr from Jama will most likely be wrong, as we all know death rates are waaaaaayyyy down

[TimmySmith 2,782]

5 minutes ago, MTSkiBum said:

 

Based on this study, showing more than 225,000 excess deaths over a 5-month period, the total number of excess deaths for 2020 — compared with previous years — is likely to be greater than 400,000, Dr. Howard Bauchner, editor-in-chief of JAMA, and Dr. Phil Fontanarosa, executive editor of JAMA, wrote in an editorial accompanying the study. (This estimate assumes that a similar number of excess deaths will occur over the period from August through December as occurred from March through August.) 

https://www.livescience.com/extra-deaths-covid-19-2020.html

Brings up an interesting discussion. The excess deaths are primarily people with co-morbidity and by primarily it's 90+%.  Therefore we should see a dramatic fall in the death rates over the next decade or so. So really the story of covid will be told over that span.

[MTSkiBum 1,593]

5 minutes ago, drobeski said:

Thankfully that Dr from Jama will most likely be wrong, as we all know death rates are waaaaaayyyy down

Death rates have been up very significantly this year.

During the timeframe under study, there were over 1.3 million deaths in the U.S., and 225,530 excess deaths

https://www.foxnews.com/health/coronavirus-us-excess-deaths-study

[drobeski 3,061]

1 minute ago, MTSkiBum said:

Death rates have been up very significantly this year.

During the timeframe under study, there were over 1.3 million deaths in the U.S., and 225,530 excess deaths

https://www.foxnews.com/health/coronavirus-us-excess-deaths-study

Cool, Covid deaths rates waaaaaay down in either case. 

[TimHauck 1,795]

Here is CDC study estimating 299k excess deaths thru 10/3, citing only 198k as covid - https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/69/wr/mm6942e2.htm?s_cid=mm6942e2_w

Now that it's October, I like how the argument has changed from "well they were going to die this year anyway" to "well they were going to die this decade anyway"...