Mungwater 597 Posted June 4, 2015 i bet Chaz Bono is secretly a little pissed all the attention Bruce is getting. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eaglesin14 12 Posted June 4, 2015 Yet you're interested enough to stick around. I am enjoying mocking you, Francis. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vuduchile 1,945 Posted June 4, 2015 Again, this brings back into play the discussion of where people draw lines. If everything is arbitrary...if there is no real authoritative standard, then there is no real right or wrong...only legal vs. illegal. And, that is formulated from someone else's judgment on the matter. If you don't base what's right and wrong on something concrete, I don't know what right and wrong actually becomes... This is true. Our entire legal system was built on a set of morals determined by what humans believe to be right and wrong. It has evolved over the years, but it's a far cry from where it started and worlds apart from many other countries. I don't believe in biblical inerrancy, but many Christians view the bible as the final authority on right vs. wrong. IMO, it's pretty hard to defend the views expressed in Genesis in today's world. Some Muslim countries use the Koran as the basis for their laws and are much more strict interpreting them. Living in one of those cultures is unimaginable to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tanatastic 2,062 Posted June 4, 2015 I don't believe in biblical inerrancy, but many Christians view the bible as the final authority on right vs. wrong. IMO, it's pretty hard to defend the views expressed in Genesis in today's world. Lol lets base our laws on a book written by normal dudes about an entirely fabricated concept and let that govern our lives. Its simply wild how far out alot of the things in this world are. More things are governed by make believe than they are by real things that people have actually seen, can touch, see, are logical, have been blatantly proven, arent simply impossible etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fumbleweed 554 Posted June 4, 2015 This is true. Our entire legal system was built on a set of morals determined by what humans believe to be right and wrong. It has evolved over the years, but it's a far cry from where it started and worlds apart from many other countries. I don't believe in biblical inerrancy, but many Christians view the bible as the final authority on right vs. wrong. IMO, it's pretty hard to defend the views expressed in Genesis in today's world. Some Muslim countries use the Koran as the basis for their laws and are much more strict interpreting them. Living in one of those cultures is unimaginable to me. Good post. And, I agree that you can't take the Bible, written in a totally different time and culture, and try to apply it comprehensively to modern day societies. But, you can take basic principles and try to apply them. If you don't do that, then your laws are based on...essentially nothing. Consensus thoughts and feelings, I guess. Morals are completely relative and laws subject to change as somebody powerful enough to enact them seems fit. If you do not use the Bible as your source of right vs. wrong, then your view of right vs. wrong is based on __________ ?? And, laws shoud be based on ________________? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Honcho 5,345 Posted June 4, 2015 Good post. And, I agree that you can't take the Bible, written in a totally different time and culture, and try to apply it comprehensively to modern day societies. But, you can take basic principles and try to apply them. If you don't do that, then your laws are based on...essentially nothing. Consensus thoughts and feelings, I guess. Morals are completely relative and laws subject to change as somebody powerful enough to enact them seems fit. If you do not use the Bible as your source of right vs. wrong, then your view of right vs. wrong is based on __________ ?? And, laws shoud be based on ________________? 1, L. Ron Hubbard. 2, laws will be decreed by the winner of a contest pitting children in a fight to the death. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vuduchile 1,945 Posted June 4, 2015 i bet Chaz Bono is secretly a little pissed all the attention Bruce is getting. I actually think they'd make a cute couple. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted June 4, 2015 Good post. And, I agree that you can't take the Bible, written in a totally different time and culture, and try to apply it comprehensively to modern day societies. But, you can take basic principles and try to apply them. If you don't do that, then your laws are based on...essentially nothing. Consensus thoughts and feelings, I guess. Morals are completely relative and laws subject to change as somebody powerful enough to enact them seems fit. If you do not use the Bible as your source of right vs. wrong, then your view of right vs. wrong is based on __________ ?? And, laws shoud be based on ________________? You made that post in reply to a post about age of consent. If we refer to the bible there, it would be somewhere around 12. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fumbleweed 554 Posted June 4, 2015 You made that post in reply to a post about age of consent. If we refer to the bible there, it would be somewhere around 12. If you look at what I said, I noted there is no way to comprehensively base laws on a culture that is long departed. Only principles can be used. I just want people to fill in the blanks that I have presented. I want to know what the answers to those questions would be... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frank M 181 Posted June 4, 2015 I am enjoying mocking you, Francis. Oh, is that what you were trying to accomplish? Yeah, it's working for you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tanatastic 2,062 Posted June 4, 2015 I actually think they'd make a cute couple. Bruce is still into hot women like he always was. wich makes it all the more strange. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted June 4, 2015 If you look at what I said, I noted there is no way to comprehensively base laws on a culture that is long departed. Only principles can be used. I just want people to fill in the blanks that I have presented. I want to know what the answers to those questions would be... Your point seemed to be that in instances where we're not sure where we should "draw the line", we should refer to the bible for guidance. And the specific "line" in question is age of consent. What biblical "principle" are you suggesting we apply to age of consent ? "if it's got hair, you can go there"? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted June 4, 2015 RP trolling a thread? Never. Didn't he claim last weke that he does not derail other threads? Oof Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Reality 3,121 Posted June 4, 2015 The intolerance of the self proclaimed tolerant always blows me away. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,060 Posted June 4, 2015 Your point seemed to be that in instances where we're not sure where we should "draw the line", we should refer to the bible for guidance. And the specific "line" in question is age of consent. What biblical "principle" are you suggesting we apply to age of consent ? "if it's got hair, you can go there"? And why does Fumble's say hold precedent over anyone else's? Because it's his interpretation of something that was once written in a book? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Mike Honcho 5,345 Posted June 4, 2015 RP trolling a thread? Never. Didn't he claim last weke that he does not derail other threads? Oof I was going to point that out, but decided against it since that thread was deleted and didn't want to hear the refrain of "link...link...bump, still waiting...nothing." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eaglesin14 12 Posted June 4, 2015 RP trolling a thread? Never. Didn't he claim last weke that he does not derail other threads? Oof Mocking the dumbass posts of someone else isn't derailing a thread. Good job staying on topic, BTW. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,153 Posted June 4, 2015 And why does Fumble's say hold precedent over anyone else's? Because it's his interpretation of something that was once written in a book? I think what Fumble is getting at is that ours and most other societies moral fabric is woven in part by Religon (specifically Christianity here in America). The 10 Commandments, how our moral compass is derived, etc. Historically speaking..... I think that's what he's alluding too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fumbleweed 554 Posted June 4, 2015 Your point seemed to be that in instances where we're not sure where we should "draw the line", we should refer to the bible for guidance. And the specific "line" in question is age of consent. What biblical "principle" are you suggesting we apply to age of consent? Valid question. And, difficult to answer. Marriage in those times often occurred when people were very young by today's standards. There are plenty of relationship guidelines in the Bible that require maturity to uphold. When does a person truly become mature enough to fully understand the possible consequences of their actions? To engage, thus, in intimate acts that can lead to both positive and negative consequences. The Bible's stance on sex is that is should take place in marriage only (cannot legislate that obviously), but that it should also be with the pleasure/satisfaction of one's partner at the forefront of the process. When does a person begin to think like that? Again, good question. The brain is not fully developed in an individual until he/she is 23-27. However, puberty precedes that by quite a bit. I guess the principle most in play here is the idea of protecting and nurturing children and not taking advantage of them. It becomes a judgment call then as to when a female child becomes a female adolescent or adult capable of understanding all that she is engaging in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vuduchile 1,945 Posted June 4, 2015 Good post. And, I agree that you can't take the Bible, written in a totally different time and culture, and try to apply it comprehensively to modern day societies. But, you can take basic principles and try to apply them. If you don't do that, then your laws are based on...essentially nothing. Consensus thoughts and feelings, I guess. Morals are completely relative and laws subject to change as somebody powerful enough to enact them seems fit. If you do not use the Bible as your source of right vs. wrong, then your view of right vs. wrong is based on __________ ?? And, laws shoud be based on ________________? I use the views, stories and lessons of the bible as a basis for morality. IMO, that's a good starting point. But I can't logically take every word as the infallible word of God. As the world evolves, so must it's laws. Your second question seems like a simple one, but there are no easy answers. You could go with common decency, or general consensus, but even those opinions have an origin. We're just humans trying to make as much sense of our world as we can. At some point in our history, killing, raping and enslaving each other were common practices. But, as we evolved, those acts were looked upon as wrong, and eventually outlawed. If edjr had lived during that time, I'm sure he would've been labeled the first anti- rape laws as the ultimate pussification of the world. Which brings us to your original point. The lines we draw are as arbitrary and varied as potential lotto winning numbers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fumbleweed 554 Posted June 4, 2015 Or male child for that matter... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Eaglesin14 12 Posted June 4, 2015 What does the peaceful Muslim religion have to say about this? It will be quite the conundrum for the board Libnuts to support Jenner, and defend muslim's stance on this. It's easy to attack someone's position based on their Christianity, but doing the same for Muslims presents a problem. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,060 Posted June 4, 2015 I think what Fumble is getting at is that ours and most other societies moral fabric is woven in part by Religon (specifically Christianity here in America). The 10 Commandments, how our moral compass is derived, etc. I think that's what he's alluding too. And I think what some of us are saying is so what? Many folks aren't Christian and many of those who are Christian don't really believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible frozen for all of time. Not to mention that there are many ways to interpret the Bible and many different forms of Christianity. So fumble can base his views on his interpretation of the Christian Bible but I don't think his opinion holds sway over anyone else's Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fumbleweed 554 Posted June 4, 2015 And why does Fumble's say hold precedent over anyone else's? Because it's his interpretation of something that was once written in a book? I didn't say it should. I said that mine has a basis in something concrete. What does yours have a basis in? That's all I'm asking. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vuduchile 1,945 Posted June 4, 2015 RP trolling a thread? Never. Didn't he claim last weke that he does not derail other threads? Oof link? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted June 4, 2015 I think what Fumble is getting at is that our current societies moral fabric is woven in part by Religon (specifically Christianity here in America). The 10 Commandments, how our moral compass is derived, etc. I think that's what he's alluding too. Of course he is, it was just interesting where he chose to drop it in. I'm not trying to bust Fumble's balls, I'm really not. I like Fumble, but I hate this argument that there would be no morality in the absence of the bible. It's also interesting how Christianity takes credit for common mores that exist across a broad range of societies and predate even the old testament in many cases. I mean, I'm pretty sure killing was frowned upon even before Moses came down from the Mount, wasn't it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fumbleweed 554 Posted June 4, 2015 Of course he is, it was just interesting where he chose to drop it in. I'm not trying to bust Fumble's balls, I'm really not, but I hate this argument that there would be no morality in the absence of the bible. It's also interesting how Christianity takes credit for common mores that exist across a broad range of societies and predate even the old testament in many cases. I mean, I'm pretty sure killing was frowned upon even before Moses came down from the Mount, wasn't it? Not saying that there would be no morality per se, but it has to come from SOMETHING. If not the Bible, then what? That's all I'm asking for here. Without something concrete to base laws and morality on, it becomes a completely subjective set of elements...without basis in anything, really. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,060 Posted June 4, 2015 I didn't say it should. I said that mine has a basis in something concrete. What does yours have a basis in? That's all I'm asking. And I disagree. Your opinion is based on your interpretation of the one of many, many, many religious texts in the world. You may view the Bible as the only true word of God but many people look to another text or a different interpretation of that text, or they don't even believe in a higher power at all. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted June 4, 2015 The intolerance of the self proclaimed tolerant always blows me away. This stance always blows me away. Because its always complete and utter BS by someone who wants to remain bigoted about things and not be called out for it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,153 Posted June 4, 2015 Of course he is, it was just interesting where he chose to drop it in. I'm not trying to bust Fumble's balls, I'm really not, but I hate this argument that there would be no morality in the absence of the bible. It's also interesting how Christianity takes credit for common mores that exist across a broad range of societies and predate even the old testament in many cases. I mean, I'm pretty sure killing was frowned upon even before Moses came down from the Mount, wasn't it? Maybe I missed it but I don't recall anyone saying that. There would be some sort of morality, some sort of "order" but really, who knows what that would be to be honest. We can't really go back in time and get the toothpaste back in the tubes. What we can do and probably the best thing we can do is look at different countries, different religions (of which their morality is different). The most basic morals seem basic human nature in theory. Don't kill thy neighbor. Don't steal. However the grey areas is what we are talking about here. Islamic countries has a slightly different version of morality. I'm sure African Tribes with little touch from the outside wourld have their own taboo's that are wholly different then ours. They may think raping 12 year old girls is just okay and dandy as thats the way its always been. etc. etc. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted June 4, 2015 link? link to what? Him derailing? Well...Id say what frank has quoted of him admitting he is not even posting about the topic and is just following him around is pretty much an admission. If you want a link to him stating he does not do that...didn't you go through this with him last week? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,060 Posted June 4, 2015 link to what? Him derailing? Well...Id say what frank has quoted of him admitting he is not even posting about the topic and is just following him around is pretty much an admission. If you want a link to him stating he does not do that...didn't you go through this with him last week? If you just ignore him he'll go away. It takes two to tango as they say Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fumbleweed 554 Posted June 4, 2015 And I disagree. Your opinion is based on your interpretation of the one of many, many, many religious texts in the world. You may view the Bible as the only true word of God but many people look to another text or a different interpretation of that text, or they don't even believe in a higher power at all. I will wholeheartedly concede all of that. No problem. It still doesn't answer my question about you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted June 4, 2015 Not saying that there would be no morality per se, but it has to come from SOMETHING. If not the Bible, then what? That's all I'm asking for here. Without something concrete to base laws and morality on, it becomes a completely subjective set of elements...without basis in anything, really. Where did it come from in societies that never heard of the bible? Call me crazy but I think people have an innate sense of right and wrong. I don't believe the Ten Commandments came from God, I believe they came from man. God just took the credit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IGotWorms 4,060 Posted June 4, 2015 I will wholeheartedly concede all of that. No problem. It still doesn't answer my question about you. Well your question is invalid in light of your conceasion. Can I point to one true code as the basis for my value judgments? No. And neither can you. You think you have one but that's the only difference Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vuduchile 1,945 Posted June 4, 2015 Valid question. And, difficult to answer. Marriage in those times often occurred when people were very young by today's standards. There are plenty of relationship guidelines in the Bible that require maturity to uphold. When does a person truly become mature enough to fully understand the possible consequences of their actions? To engage, thus, in intimate acts that can lead to both positive and negative consequences. The Bible's stance on sex is that is should take place in marriage only (cannot legislate that obviously), but that it should also be with the pleasure/satisfaction of one's partner at the forefront of the process. When does a person begin to think like that? Again, good question. The brain is not fully developed in an individual until he/she is 23-27. However, puberty precedes that by quite a bit. I guess the principle most in play here is the idea of protecting and nurturing children and not taking advantage of them. It becomes a judgment call then as to when a female child becomes a female adolescent or adult capable of understanding all that she is engaging in. We're only a few centuries removed from pre-teen age of consent in the U.S.. Following English law of the time, the age of consent in the original colonies was 10-12 yrs. old. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sho Nuff 720 Posted June 4, 2015 If you just ignore him he'll go away. It takes two to tango as they say I don't talk to the guy other than once or twice a month. But he won't go away...that much has been established often. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Fumbleweed 554 Posted June 4, 2015 Where did it come from in societies that never heard of the bible? Call me crazy but I think people have an innate sense of right and wrong. I don't believe the Ten Commandments came from God, I believe they came from man. God just took the credit. So, people just instinctively know right from wrong? Based on what? And where does that instinct come from? Who provided it? I think part of what you're saying is correct. But, I would say that is something instilled in you by a creator. How else do you suppose it gets there? Like you, I am not busting balls. I just think that innate sense is pretty cool...but it didn't just come from nothing. Where do emotions come from? Where does that intense love you feel when you're tucking your kids in their beds at night come from? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
vuduchile 1,945 Posted June 4, 2015 link to what? Him derailing? Well...Id say what frank has quoted of him admitting he is not even posting about the topic and is just following him around is pretty much an admission. If you want a link to him stating he does not do that...didn't you go through this with him last week? i was being sarcastic Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,153 Posted June 4, 2015 I don't talk to the guy other than once or twice a month. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites