My Problem with Trans Jenner

[parrot 789]

There's other overwhelming factors that I worry make growing up in China overall significantly worse than the US for my children but this being gay-free is a silver lining.

 

Yeah, it would be so harmful for your children to see gay people being productive and accepted members of society. Even though they've been around forever and aren't going anywhere, let's hang on to treating them like pariahs so we don't have to feel "creepy" or "uncomfortable". That's a great plan.

[Frank M 181]

 

What are you basing your argument on with respect to having sex with a dog? Consent, I assume, correct? So, your line would be that two creatures with the ability to express consent should be allowed to have sex...correct?

 

If so, that's where you draw the line and where a lot of people draw the line. I get that.

 

The point is that the topic is too stupid to discuss.

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

This is a problem for me. All the cool people I like and respect seem to be swept up in the gay rights crowd. Meanwhile, I'm not. I'm stuck hanging out with Pat Robertson, Rick Santorum and an entirely different group of freaks.

 

Man, I should just keep my mouth shut.

Exactly. It's the old you're either with us or against us axiom, touted by none other than W Bush. It wasn't true or make sense when he said it, and it's not true here.

[KSB2424 3,153]

I think the point is the acceptance that all feelings are fine, there is no such thing as normal. but acting on those feelings to cause harm on another is where we draw our morality line.

 

Thank you for at least a reasoned response, it appears you read the thread and understand the direct analogy of Sandusky to Jenner (made by Wiffle) isn't what I was talking about.....

 

And this is going to the heart of my question....and where I challenge you (on the bolded statement)

 

In our society, all feelings aren't fine though. There are feelings, organic feelings by people who have NEVER acted on them that are taboo, that are looked upon negatively. Normally if a person tells another of those feelings before they act on them they are met with some sort of therapy to help them deal with it. Why therapy? Because the feelings are deemed taboo. No?

[Fumbleweed 554]

 

The point is that the topic is too stupid to discuss.

 

I'm not really interested in discussing it, either. My only beef in this whole set of ideas is that people seem to no longer be able to accept/tolerate those who have a more strict code of morality, if you will, than their own.

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

 

Yeah, it would be so harmful for your children to see gay people being productive and accepted members of society. Even though they've been around forever and aren't going anywhere, let's hang on to treating them like pariahs so we don't have to feel "creepy" or "uncomfortable". That's a great plan.

Is it possible to be respectful and accepting of gay people but draw the line at transgender? I know for one that's how I feel. But somehow, according to the playbook, I may as well be in the Westboro baptist church.

[DankNuggs 305]

 

Thank you for at least a reasoned response, it appears you read the thread and understand the direct analogy of Sandusky to Jenner isn't what I was talking about.....

 

And this is going to the heart of my question....and where I challenge you (on the bolded statement)

 

In our society, all feelings aren't fine though. There are feelings, organic feelings by people who have NEVER acted on them that are taboo, that are looked upon negatively. Normally if a person tells another of those feelings before they act on them they are met with some sort of therapy to help them deal with it. Why therapy? Because the feelings are deemed taboo. No?

it would mean that modern psychology needs to shift to specifically deal with the acting out of thoughts rather than actually sorting through them. As all thoughts are equal as long as you don't hurt anyone.

[Frank M 181]

No there are many other types of courage, but describing all of them isn't necessary to make my point, but thanks for telling me what I think. Did I say everyone in the military is a hero? Again, thanks for telling me what I think. ESPN won't miss me one bit, you're right. Maybe I shouldn't vote anymore either. I won't be missed there either. You're not as as you think you are. You just follow an ideology lock, stock and barrel and are unable to process divergent thoughts at the same time. Keep reading your script.

 

You were the one who made the comparison. Have the balls to stand by it.

 

Or go off on a little rant like you just did, I don't care.

[KSB2424 3,153]

it would mean that modern psychology needs to shift to specifically deal with the acting out of thoughts rather than actually sorting through them. As all thoughts are equal as long as you don't hurt anyone.

 

From a criminal point of view of course. However from a societal "what is taboo and what is not" point of view I disagree.

[Frank M 181]

 

I'm not really interested in discussing it, either. My only beef in this whole set of ideas is that people seem to no longer be able to accept/tolerate those who have a more strict code of morality, if you will, than their own.

It's the stepping out and making statements denigrating others based on a stricter moral code that's the problem for me. Not that you did that.

 

 

 

If you keep your moral code confined to yourself, I have absolutely zero problem with it.

[DankNuggs 305]

 

From a criminal point of view of course. However from a societal "what is taboo and what is not" point of view I disagree.

You aren't allowed to disagree. Disagreeing is the only trigger that allows marginalization in our society.

[DankNuggs 305]

It's the stepping out and making statements denigrating others based on a stricter moral code that's the problem for me. If you keep your moral code confined to yourself, I have absolutely zero problem with it.

 

Not that you did that.

You can think it, you just can;t act on it to hurt others... obey the code.

[Fumbleweed 554]

Is it possible to be respectful and accepting of gay people but draw the line at transgender? I know for one that's how I feel. But somehow, according to the playbook, I may as well be in the Westboro baptist church.

 

It should be possible, but in the all-or-nothing world that live in, it becomes increasingly difficult. I have friends and co-workers who are gay/lesbian and I treat them the way I treat anybody else. Absolutely no difference. There are two lesbians living down the street from me and my daughter babysits their daughter for them. They are great parents.

 

But, because I believe that some sexual actions run contrary to the tenets of my faith, I somehow get lumped into a group in these discussions to which I do not belong. Accept anything and everything or you're a bigot. That's just absurd.

[Jetdoc 20]

I think it took some balls to do what Jenner did.

 

I thought it tooks some balls off to do what Jenner did.

 

[NewbieJr 541]

 

I'm not really interested in discussing it, either. My only beef in this whole set of ideas is that people seem to no longer be able to accept/tolerate those who have a more strict code of morality, if you will, than their own.

Morality is an individual issue and no one is stopping you from being against homosexuality or transgenders. It's only when you want to deny them the same rights as you, that people want to attack your intolerance.

[Fumbleweed 554]

It's the stepping out and making statements denigrating others based on a stricter moral code that's the problem for me. Not that you did that.

 

 

 

If you keep your moral code confined to yourself, I have absolutely zero problem with it.

 

I agree with you to a point. Denigrating others is one thing. But, I will exercise my right to vote and will base my vote on my own personal beliefs, just as you do.

[Fumbleweed 554]

Morality is an individual issue and no one is stopping you from being against homosexuality or transgenders. It's only when you want to deny them the same rights as you, that people want to attack your intolerance.

 

Which rights are you under the impression that I wish to deny? Or were you just speaking generically... ?

[IGotWorms 4,060]

 

I guess you didn't read my posts, because I specifically stated, even if the person doesn't act on said internal feelings its still taboo to have them at all. Take acting on these internal feelings out of it. And obviously on a spectrum of "deviant" feelings liking kids is further out than wanting to be a woman. However some still draw the line further up....

 

Never mind, I'll just chalk this up to being a time where you can't have this conversation without immediate guards going up and a refusal to think on a more macro and less PC level.

 

:yawn:

[NewbieJr 541]

 

Which rights are you under the impression that I wish to deny? Or were you just speaking generically... ?

I'm speaking in general. About those against gay marriage and use the bible as their reason.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

 

There are several hundred million Christians in the world today. Are you really going to attempt to paint your stereotype with such an incredibly broad stroke?

 

No, I won't have a conversation with someone who generalizes that much. If you can't take people on a case-by-case basis and instead want to lump them all into some sort of pre-conceived box, what's the use of discussing.

Wow. You really don't get it

[The Elevator Killer 659]

Jenner has always been a dbag attention . The day after the vanity fair cover he did an interview to a tabloid about his sham marriage. What about the woman he married and lied to about who he really is. Is that brave? Even today he's lying saying he isn't gay. Sorry Bruce, even if you really do like women, now your a woman so that makes you gay.

[parrot 789]

Is it possible to be respectful and accepting of gay people but draw the line at transgender? I know for one that's how I feel. But somehow, according to the playbook, I may as well be in the Westboro baptist church.

 

Sure it's possible to accept gay people and reject transgenders. Whether it's sensible or fair is the question.

[Fumbleweed 554]

I'm speaking in general. About those against gay marriage and use the bible as their reason.

 

I am opposed to gay marriage. But, I do support equal protection for same-sex couples in some other form. I don't believe in changing the definition of marriage...but I also don't believe advantages should be given by the government to one union vs. another. Not sure where that leaves me.

[Fumbleweed 554]

Wow. You really don't get it

 

Relax. I read the comment out of its proper context. My mistake.

[DankNuggs 305]

Is it possible to be respectful and accepting of gay people but draw the line at transgender? I know for one that's how I feel. But somehow, according to the playbook, I may as well be in the Westboro baptist church.

Because you accurately bring in the role of mental health in this discussion... but it is expressly forbidden because it ultimately produces value judgements in terminology like disorder or illness.... It is ultimately a dysmorphia, not really different from anorexia. But anorexia is a mental illness, which is a third rail in the trans discussion

[IGotWorms 4,060]

I'm glad I finished reading the thread before commenting on it because I was all set to agree with KSB and jerry but now that the ' focking bigoted bullsh1t' card has been played, I'd better stop.

 

Ah, but I'm too stupid.

 

I think now that the gays have won in the court system and in pop culture, it's time to slide the trannies in the acceptance door too. And since people squeamish of all this sudden social change are guilty of focking bigoted bullsh1t, we can be slid out of the acceptance door to make room.

 

This is still all so creepy and freaky and uncomfortable. I'm glad my family and I are insulated by being overseas and I only have to deal with it when I'm online, my kids not at all. I never encountered all the gay hype and together with not being familiar with current music or TV or computer aptitude always feel in a cultural time warp to the 20th century. There's other overwhelming factors that I worry make growing up in China overall significantly worse than the US for my children but this being gay-free is a silver lining.

Stop it. What I said is focking bigoted bullsh1t is comparing a man who identifies as a woman to another man who rapes young children. The two are not at all comparable in any way shape or form and yes, it is focking bigoted bullsh1t to suggest otherwise.

 

As to the rest of your post, obviously thats your take on it and you're entitled to it. Honestly the transgender thing does slightly weird me out too but I reckon I just need to get over it. The alternative is that many people have to go their whole lives living a lie just so that I am never made slightly uncomfortable by something. Doesn't seem right to me but I understand others disagree

[KSB2424 3,153]

Because you accurately bring in the role of mental health in this discussion... but it is expressly forbidden because it ultimately produces value judgements in terminology like disorder or illness.... It is ultimately a dysmorphia, not really different from anorexia. But anorexia is a mental illness, which is a third rail in the trans discussion

 

Again, thanks DankNuggs, you seem to be a breath of fresh air in this thread. Somebody is using their brain and not resorting to preconceived notions and looking at this not through a PC prism but rather through a logical prism.

[Mike Honcho 5,345]

 

I am opposed to gay marriage. But, I do support equal protection for same-sex couples in some other form. I don't believe in changing the definition of marriage...but I also don't believe advantages should be given by the government to one union vs. another. Not sure where that leaves me.

 

confused.

 

"Marriage" is what the church does, and whether or not a church decides to recognize gay marriage is up that particular faith. The government/legal institutions used the term marriage to recognize the "contract" between a man and a woman, and the certain rights it bestowed upon them(wills, power-of-attorney...). Essentially you have 1 word that describes two different things. IMO, if you believe that same-sex couples should have the same rights as everyone else, then you believe in gay marriage(small m), you just seem to be having trouble over-coming your faith-based traditional view of the word.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

You aren't allowed to disagree. Disagreeing is the only trigger that allows marginalization in our society.

Again: stop it. You can disagree and no one here has suggested otherwise. What isn't fair is comparing someone to a focking child rapist--a sexual predator who preys on the weakest in society and destroys young lives in the process. There is no comparison to be made there and that's what people were reacting against.

[Voltaire 5,388]

 

Yeah, it would be so harmful for your children to see gay people being productive and accepted members of society. Even though they've been around forever and aren't going anywhere, let's hang on to treating them like pariahs so we don't have to feel "creepy" or "uncomfortable". That's a great plan.

They weren't around when I was a kid or at least they were quiet and kept to themselves out of the spotlight such that it was invisible.

 

There were celebrity entertainers. I always liked Elton John and Boy George. Richard Simmons was odd but harmless, I liked him too. I didn't know any of them were gay. Not even Boy George who dressed like a woman for some reason. I thought YMCA was a cool song, didn't even realize it was over-the-top gay until I was an adult and then when I found out it was, I didn't care.

 

But they were all on TV. People in your everyday life, well I never met or knew anyone. If I did, they kept it to themselves. I didn't notice. But like I said, my gaydar was so broken as a kid that I could watch the policeman and the fireman dance in that YMCA video dozens of times without detecting any gay innuendo at all. I didn't know to look for it. don't think think that was such a bad way to grow up.

[DankNuggs 305]

Again: stop it. You can disagree and no one here has suggested otherwise. What isn't fair is comparing someone to a focking child rapist--a sexual predator who preys on the weakest in society and destroys young lives in the process. There is no comparison to be made there and that's what people were reacting against.

im on board with you, but i think his point were the thoughts, not the action on those thoughts. Also, im not talking about HERE specifically with that comment, im talking society in general...

[KSB2424 3,153]

Again: stop it. You can disagree and no one here has suggested otherwise. What isn't fair is comparing someone to a focking child rapist--a sexual predator who preys on the weakest in society and destroys young lives in the process. There is no comparison to be made there and that's what people were reacting against.

 

True, but misguidedly so. Even when others tried to pivot off of the analogy, to a different path, some were incapable to do so. Even after disclaimers and multiple posts trying to say as much.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

Here's my thing with transgender issues...

 

You wanna dress like a chick? That's fine. Hell, you wanna pretend you're a dolphin and have a blowhole carved into your back, whatever, not my life, not my business.

 

But don't expect me to a) care and pretend that just because you turned your d!ck inside out you are a woman now.

 

You are beginning to see issues like little girls going into a ladies room and seeing a big hairy dong. Or some 6'4" "woman" with an Adam's apple playing women's sports. That's not right.

 

Personally, I think that transgender operations violate the physicians oath to "do no harm" as they are taking a functional reproductive system and turning it into a useless sack of meat. They should be referred to psychiatric care.

 

You know what's focked up? If a woman in her 20's who was having female trouble went in asking for a hysterectomy, she would have a hard time finding a doctor willing to do it so young. I know, I've had two girlfriends try. But if they go in and ask to have it turned into a cack, no problem.

 

As for this award... Courageous? Give me a break. Its attention wh0redom at its worst.

 

So to recap, do whatever you like, just leave me out of it.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

im on board with you, but i think his point were the thoughts, not the action on those thoughts. Also, im not talking about HERE specifically with that comment, im talking society in general...

Still don't think the comparison is fair in any way shape or form. Let's say you identify as a man who likes to rape young children entrusted to your care, but you never actually do it. That still would not be acceptable because your identity involves criminal activity and the actual victimization of others.

 

As compared to identity that you find weird but which does not entail harm to anyone.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

 

True, but misguidedly so. Even when others tried to pivot off of the analogy, to a different path, some were incapable to do so. Even after disclaimers and multiple posts trying to say as much.

Okay, glad you have admitted your error or "pivoted away from it" if you prefer

[vuduchile 1,945]

Sandusky's true inner desires had victims - I draw the line at kids because he wrecked their lives.

 

Jenner's orientation hurts nobody except maybe him/herself. So I think it's perverse but I could not give a fock what it does to itself.

 

Comparing that to Sandusky isn't apples or oranges, it's apples to freaking cinderblocks.

I don't think the 2 are comparable either, but I think Jenner's 3 ex wives might have been hurt to some degree.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

Still don't think the comparison is fair in any way shape or form. Let's say you identify as a man who likes to rape young children entrusted to your care, but you never actually do it. That still would not be acceptable because your identity involves criminal activity and the actual victimization of others.

 

As compared to identity that you find weird but which does not entail harm to anyone.

That's not really true.

 

Every single guy in here would "like" to Fock a smoking hot seventeen year old. We don't do it. Why? Because we recognize that it is wrong, regardless of what our cack says.

 

I'm sure there are many people who are attracted to children who never act on it, because they know it is wrong.

 

Your actions, not your urges, are what matters.

[DankNuggs 305]

Still don't think the comparison is fair in any way shape or form. Let's say you identify as a man who likes to rape young children entrusted to your care, but you never actually do it. That still would not be acceptable because your identity involves criminal activity and the actual victimization of others.

 

As compared to identity that you find weird but which does not entail harm to anyone.

I don't agree with it, i was just trying to flush out his point in the spirit of discussion

[IGotWorms 4,060]

I don't agree with it, i was just trying to flush out his point in the spirit of discussion

[MDC 7,652]

I don't think the 2 are comparable either, but I think Jenner's 3 ex wives might have been hurt to some degree.

I have to admit I don't know a ton about Jenner, but his orientation / sex change in itself doesn't have victims - it's the lying about it that hurt his ex wives. Pedophilia always has victims.