My Problem with Trans Jenner

[IGotWorms 4,060]

Also naomi you are not a dumb girl. Don't you notice all your biblical reasoning is full of fallacies?

 

That dude must have spent three days in a whale's stomach because Jesus said so, and we know Jesus wasn't a liar!

 

God's wrath must be a good thing because God is perfect so everything he does is right!

 

Okay, sorry, some of us need a wee bit more than that

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

Also naomi you are not a dumb girl. Don't you notice all your biblical reasoning is full of fallacies?

 

That dude must have spent three days in a whale's stomach because Jesus said so, and we know Jesus wasn't a liar!

 

God's wrath must be a good thing because God is perfect so everything he does is right!

 

Okay, sorry, some of us need a wee bit more than that

Yeah. When I was in college, I was dating a religious girl. Her family gave me a book called "the case for Christ" which claimed to logically Prove the bible.

 

It was just a bunch of circular logic beginning from preconceived "truths".

 

Bottom line... The whole thing just massively fails the smell test. I can see how illiterate uneducated ancient and midevil folks fell for it. I do not understand how modern people do.

[vuduchile 1,945]

We're always cautioned not to lump all Muslims together as extremists, but I don't see anyone saying that about Christians.

 

When I was younger, I was on the same side of this debate as titans and tantastic. In fact, their posts are strikingly similar to verbiage I used when discussing religion.

 

I held myself up as too smart and too logical to believe any many of the bible's preposterous claims. I still don't believe everything the bible says, but, over the years my beliefs have evolved as I've seen more of the world and the people in it.

 

As I said before, one does not need to believe in the Bible as the infallible word of God in order to be a Christian.

 

I realize many of you think you know what Christianity is and how it's practiced, but it's not like that everywhere.

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

We're always cautioned not to lump all Muslims together as extremists, but I don't see anyone saying that about Christians.

 

When I was younger, I was on the same side of this debate as titans and tantastic. In fact, their posts are strikingly similar to verbiage I used when discussing religion.

 

I held myself up as too smart and too logical to believe any many of the bible's preposterous claims. I still don't believe everything the bible says, but, over the years my beliefs have evolved as I've seen more of the world and the people in it.

 

As I said before, one does not need to believe in the Bible as the infallible word of God in order to be a Christian.

 

I realize many of you think you know what Christianity is and how it's practiced, but it's not like that everywhere.

I understand that.

 

I was raised Methodist. Have done some time in baptist, catholic, and Presbyterian too. Most of those people don't believe the bible is infallible. Most believe it is allegory.

 

But even the most basic central tenants of Christianity reek of bs to me. And let's not even talk about attempting to differentiate Christianity from all the thousands of other "truths" out there.

 

I don't think Christians are stupid. I think most of them believe because they were raised to believe. I think some people turn to it in a time of pain in life. Most mainstream Christians are good people.

 

I just find it amusing to hear Christians (many of whom know less about their religion and its book than I do) call others with similar beliefs like Islam wrong. And then call some religions "crazy cults."

 

If you're willing to swallow that story, I don't see how Mormonism or Scientology is any more out there frankly.

[Frank M 181]

TBBOM, although I think it would still strike you as stupid, either way, for the record that summary isn't the summary I'd give.

 

I actually don't mind the rigid negative remarks because I know they're honest thoughts shared by the more diplomatic others. If it opens the door to explain something that expounds on the gospel, it's worth it. Yes, it probably most often just opens the door to marinate in pity and scorn, but you never know...

 

Christian Answers (apologetics) on Jonah

 

 

Trying to convince bible literalists that the accounts in the bible cannot be true is a futile exercise, I understand that, just as I understand that even though nothing in the bible jives with anything in my belief system, I shouldn't ridicule others for what they believe (although I think all of us fall into that at one time or another).

 

Intellectual dishonesty, however, is another matter altogether.

 

 

1. NATURAL. In the first place, it has been well established that the phrase “three days and three nights” in ancient Hebrew usage was an idiomatic expression meaning simply “three days,” and was applicable even if the beginning and ending days of the period were only partial days. Thus it could refer to a period as short as about 38 hours. There is always some air in the whale’s stomach, and, as long as the animal it has swallowed is still alive, digestive activity will not begin. Thus, Jonah’s experience could possibly have happened entirely with the framework of natural law.

    

The entire bolded part is completely untrue. There is nowhere near enough breathable air in a whale's stomach for any creature that depends on oxygen to survive to last for more than a few minutes. Also, the digestive tract of whales (or any creature, for that matter) is not selective. Once anything enters the digestive system, the enzymes residing there will begin the process of digestion, whether the ingested animal is alive or not. Some animals have "storage" compartments along the way where food is stored before digestion, but these are normally herbivorous animals, not predators.

 

When "facts" are made up to support an unbelievable story, that's where I take exception. It's lazy. If your link had just stuck to "it was a miracle" alone, I wouldn't have anything to say, since arguing against belief in miracles is futile. Most of the people who would believe that Jonah survived three days in the belly of a great fish don't need extra made-up proof to convince them, they'll believe it anyways.

[NewbieJr 541]

I understand that.

 

I was raised Methodist. Have done some time in baptist, catholic, and Presbyterian too. Most of those people don't believe the bible is infallible. Most believe it is allegory.

 

But even the most basic central tenants of Christianity reek of bs to me. And let's not even talk about attempting to differentiate Christianity from all the thousands of other "truths" out there.

 

I don't think Christians are stupid. I think most of them believe because they were raised to believe. I think some people turn to it in a time of pain in life. Most mainstream Christians are good people.

 

I just find it amusing to hear Christians (many of whom know less about their religion and its book than I do) call others with similar beliefs like Islam wrong. And then call some religions "crazy cults."

 

If you're willing to swallow that story, I don't see how Mormonism or Scientology is any more out there frankly.

What if you're a person who believes in God, believes in Jesus, believes in not committing sins, and believes there's an eternal afterlife if you live in a Godly manner, but realizes that Jonah and the Whale and Noah's Ark are just fables created years ago to promote the powers of God? Can't you still be a Christian and not believe all the nonsense that goes along with it?

[titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745]

What if you're a person who believes in God, believes in Jesus, believes in not committing sins, and believes there's an eternal afterlife if you live in a Godly manner, but realizes that Jonah and the Whale and Noah's Ark are just fables created years ago to promote the powers of God? Can't you still be a Christian and not believe all the nonsense that goes along with it?

Well, I would argue that the "he sent us his only son who died on the cross and rose from the dead to sit at the right hand of God the father " part is nonsense, and I think any Christian would say that is a pretty central pillar of Christianity.

[MDC 7,652]

I like how the Qaran is 100% literal but the bible is literal when it's convenient and allegory when it's not.

 

All world religions are pretty much equally stupid IMO. Except libertarianism, which is the best. And Mormonism / Scientology, which are even stupider.

 

If you're a Mormon, you're pretty much admitting your relatives in the early 1800s were as stupid as people thousands of years ago.

 

And if you're a Scientologist, you're admitting that you are as stupid as people thousands of years ago.

[Sho Nuff 720]

I don't take 100% of the Bible or Quran literally...hth

[vuduchile 1,945]

What if you're a person who believes in God, believes in Jesus, believes in not committing sins, and believes there's an eternal afterlife if you live in a Godly manner, but realizes that Jonah and the Whale and Noah's Ark are just fables created years ago to promote the powers of God? Can't you still be a Christian and not believe all the nonsense that goes along with it?

Yes

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

I like how the Qaran is 100% literal but the bible is literal when it's convenient and allegory when it's not.

 

All world religions are pretty much equally stupid IMO. Except libertarianism, which is the best. And Mormonism / Scientology, which are even stupider.

 

If you're a Mormon, you're pretty much admitting your relatives in the early 1800s were as stupid as people thousands of years ago.

 

And if you're a Scientologist, you're admitting that you are as stupid as people thousands of years ago.

The difference in the modern age is that people believing 100% of the Koran is true has a much different outcome for the rest of us than people believing the bible is 100% true. One group flies planes in to buildings and gets homicidal over a cartoon and the other runs soup kitchens and make Homosexuals uncomfortable.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

We're always cautioned not to lump all Muslims together as extremists, but I don't see anyone saying that about Christians.

I haven't seen anyone infer that all Christians are terrorist murderers. I think that's when people tend to say "hey don't lump all Muslims together like that."

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

Most Muslims are not terrorists. Most terrorists are Muslim

[MDC 7,652]

The difference in the modern age is that people believing 100% of the Koran is true has a much different outcome for the rest of us than people believing the bible is 100% true. One group flies planes in to buildings and gets homicidal over a cartoon and the other runs soup kitchens and make Homosexuals uncomfortable.

The problem is silly book literalism, not the particular silly book, Silly.

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

The problem is silly book literalism, not the particular silly book, Silly.

I'm talking about what happens when people believe in a silly book. Two different outcomes was the point. Could you not grasp that, or were you too busy formulating your response?

[IGotWorms 4,060]

Most Muslims are not terrorists. Most terrorists are Muslim

Ok, so what do you do with that info?

[NewbieJr 541]

Yes

Exactly. That's why it's futile to bring up craziness like Jonah and the Whale as a way of showing that someone's faith is a fairy tale. I just never understood why athiests feel the need to try to talk Christians out of their beliefs. And try to ridicule them while they do it. That's the true definition of an ass hole

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

Ok, so what do you do with that info?

You don't equate Christian fundamentalists with Muslim fundamentalists. It clouds the issue, and diminishes the threat, making us less safe. Law enforcement and government agency's keep their focus on the threats to our safety, which are Muslim extremists. Christian extremists are a threat to our sensibilities, not quite the same. And what you do with that is you profile and watch that group closely.

[naomi 360]

 

 

Trying to convince bible literalists that the accounts in the bible cannot be true is a futile exercise, I understand that, just as I understand that even though nothing in the bible jives with anything in my belief system, I shouldn't ridicule others for what they believe (although I think all of us fall into that at one time or another).

 

Intellectual dishonesty, however, is another matter altogether.

 

 

1.  

The entire bolded part is completely untrue. There is nowhere near enough breathable air in a whale's stomach for any creature that depends on oxygen to survive to last for more than a few minutes. Also, the digestive tract of whales (or any creature, for that matter) is not selective. Once anything enters the digestive system, the enzymes residing there will begin the process of digestion, whether the ingested animal is alive or not. Some animals have "storage" compartments along the way where food is stored before digestion, but these are normally herbivorous animals, not predators.

 

When "facts" are made up to support an unbelievable story, that's where I take exception. It's lazy. If your link had just stuck to "it was a miracle" alone, I wouldn't have anything to say, since arguing against belief in miracles is futile. Most of the people who would believe that Jonah survived three days in the belly of a great fish don't need extra made-up proof to convince them, they'll believe it anyways.

 

I understand that I like the simplicity of how they contextualized the account and presented the approaches, but I didn't take that part as a sealed deal. A claim like that is definitely worth really looking into before you accept it as a possible real factor. I do think most people reading that who believe the Jonah account wouldn't just subsume that into their beliefs, no questions asked.

 

I would still entertain natural explanations if launching myself into an amateur study of it, but I'm inclined to start at the most accepted (observed) understanding and work from there.

[MDC 7,652]

I'm talking about what happens when people believe in a silly book. Two different outcomes was the point. Could you not grasp that, or were you too busy formulating your response?

I got your point, I just figured there was more to it since the idea that Muslim extremists are a greater threat than Christians is so obvious it doesn't really need to be said.

 

My thorn of contention is the insistence among some Christians that the Qaran is in itself the cause.

[jerryskids 6,962]

You don't equate Christian fundamentalists with Muslim fundamentalists. It clouds the issue, and diminishes the threat, making us less safe. Law enforcement and government agency's keep their focus on the threats to our safety, which are Muslim extremists. Christian extremists are a threat to our sensibilities, not quite the same. And what you do with that is you profile and watch that group closely.

This is what I was going to say.

[naomi 360]

Also naomi you are not a dumb girl. Don't you notice all your biblical reasoning is full of fallacies?

 

That dude must have spent three days in a whale's stomach because Jesus said so, and we know Jesus wasn't a liar!

 

God's wrath must be a good thing because God is perfect so everything he does is right!

 

Okay, sorry, some of us need a wee bit more than that

 

No, I don't notice that.

 

I absolutely understand that you would need 'a wee bit more' than that.

 

I believe the bible literally in that when it's not explicit that metaphor or allegory is in play, then what was written is meant literally.

 

That belief is a product of faith. The bible is true. Why would I believe something like that though? Right after I became a Christian (2008) when I read the bible...a book I'd read a fair amount of before, the words were living to me and like sustenance. They struck my 'inner man' as the most solid truth in the world. If parts of the bible are not true, then any part of the bible is questionable to me...why wouldn't it be? If I believe Christ and believe it contains his actual words (a conviction my heart can't shake - something I believe he did), what he says about it I believe, and he had a lot to say about it. Faith in Christ is not established intellectually but it's not going to be at odds with your intellect either.

[IGotWorms 4,060]

You don't equate Christian fundamentalists with Muslim fundamentalists. It clouds the issue, and diminishes the threat, making us less safe. Law enforcement and government agency's keep their focus on the threats to our safety, which are Muslim extremists. Christian extremists are a threat to our sensibilities, not quite the same. And what you do with that is you profile and watch that group closely.

Don't think people tend to equate the two, at least not so far as actual threats go. Closest I've heard is some historical references to atrocities done in the name of Christianity

[IGotWorms 4,060]

 

No, I don't notice that.

 

I absolutely understand that you would need 'a wee bit more' than that.

 

I believe the bible literally in that when it's not explicit that metaphor or allegory is in play, then what was written is meant literally.

 

That belief is a product of faith. The bible is true. Why would I believe something like that though? Right after I became a Christian (2008) when I read the bible...a book I'd read a fair amount of before, the words were living to me and like sustenance. They struck my 'inner man' as the most solid truth in the world. If parts of the bible are not true, then any part of the bible is questionable to me...why wouldn't it be? If I believe Christ and believe it contains his actual words (a conviction my heart can't shake - something I believe he did), what he says about it I believe, and he had a lot to say about it. Faith in Christ is not established intellectually but it's not going to be at odds with your intellect either.

First of all I don't believe you became a Christian in 2008. Sorry I know that is a pretty aggressive thing to say, but I think it's pretty clear you were raised a hardcore Christian from day one.

 

Second if your goal is to prove the literal truth of the Bible you can hardly start from the premise that it is all true. Don't you see how that is circular? It's true because it says it's true

 

Now you can obviously tell me that you think it's true and that's that. You don't have to prove it to me - why should you? You don't have to explain yourself to anyone if you don't want to.

[Frank M 181]

Don't think people tend to equate the two, at least not so far as actual threats go. Closest I've heard is some historical references to atrocities done in the name of Christianity

Yeah, I tend to see the equating of Christianity with Islam less along the lines of threat and more along the lines of if Islam, Mormonism, scientology, and any of the multitudes of religions practiced in the world are ridiculous, how do we say Christianity isn't?

[KSB2424 3,153]

My take on religion? I'm smart enough to know, I have no clue. Infinite Space and Time, how we got here.....even if told it's possible our little human minds don't even have the ability to grasp the concept. Like ants that are oblivious to what's outside a mile from there habitat and couldnt understand it if they even wanted too.

 

So I don't disrespect anybody who believes something. Cause I sure as shiit am not conceded enough to tell them they are wrong.

[naomi 360]

First of all I don't believe you became a Christian in 2008. Sorry I know that is a pretty aggressive thing to say, but I think it's pretty clear you were raised a hardcore Christian from day one.

 

Second if your goal is to prove the literal truth of the Bible you can hardly start from the premise that it is all true. Don't you see how that is circular? It's true because it says it's true

 

Now you can obviously tell me that you think it's true and that's that. You don't have to prove it to me - why should you? You don't have to explain yourself to anyone if you don't want to.

 

But if you are going to endeavor to prove the truth of the Bible then your arguments really can't consist of "it must be true because the Bible says its true"

 

A Christian doesn't believe that exposure or even assent to doctrine is what makes you 'born again' (passage of Jesus talking with Nicodemus, where that phrase comes from). It's impossible to be raised a Christian the way professing Christians mostly use that word...which is not to communicate your religious tradition, but to communicate your spiritual state. Is it possible to be raised in an environment with heavy familiarity of Christianity/a sect identifying as Christian...of course.

 

I never said my goal was to prove the literal truth of the bible here If I believe the bible is true out of faith, why would I expect you to without faith? My faith isn't at odds with my intellect, and when you don't have faith, your natural leaning is that it must be. I've been there. Contending with thinking that rejects the bible absolutely isn't in turn a plight of convincing you of it.

[Eaglesin14 12]

First of all I don't believe you became a Christian in 2008. Sorry I know that is a pretty aggressive thing to say, but I think it's pretty clear you were raised a hardcore Christian from day one.

 

Second if your goal is to prove the literal truth of the Bible you can hardly start from the premise that it is all true. Don't you see how that is circular? It's true because it says it's true

 

Now you can obviously tell me that you think it's true and that's that. You don't have to prove it to me - why should you? You don't have to explain yourself to anyone if you don't want to.

Can you prove one of the stories from the Bible is not true?

[MDC 7,652]

Can you prove one of the stories from the Bible is not true?

I think carbon dating has pretty conclusively proven that the Bible is wrong about te earth being only around 6,000 - 15,000 years old depending on how you read it.

 

But I'm guessing Genesis is one of those "metaphorical" parts of the Bible.

[Eaglesin14 12]

I think carbon dating has pretty conclusively proven that the Bible is wrong about te earth being only around 6,000 - 15,000 years old depending on how you read it.

 

But I'm guessing Genesis is one of those "metaphorical" parts of the Bible.

The only thing your post proves is that you have bought into misinformation.

 

 

http://thereforegodexists.com/2015/02/where-does-the-bible-say-that-the-earth-is-6000-years-old/

[Frank M 181]

Can you prove one of the stories from the Bible is not true?

 

I'm guessing that pointing out any one of the hundreds of things in the Bible that are impossible won't be enough.

 

But a few off the top of my head:

 

Creating everything in six days

Talking animals

Dispersing people across the earth and making them speak different languages

People living multiple hundreds of years

An ark that held two of every animal

A flood that destroyed everything on earth

Bushes that are on fire yet don't burn (and speak, as well)

Rivers turning to blood

Walking staffs that turn into snakes

Hail that turns to fire on the ground

The firstborn of every family dying on the same night

Oceans parting to allow thousands of people to walk across while the people trying to stop them are stopped by a pillar of flame

People turning into salt

Bread falling from the sky

Water flowing from stone

Wrestling with angels

Chariots descending from the clouds

Surviving inside a whale

Women who are virgins becoming pregnant

Feeding hundreds of people with only a few food items

Curing the sick with a touch

Resurrecting humans after certain death

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

Can you prove one of the stories from the Bible is not true?

Oh, so you're a big Christian now? News Flash: Jesus was a liberal. And not Caucasian. Santa Claus is a liberal too.

[Eaglesin14 12]

 

I'm guessing that pointing out any one of the hundreds of things in the Bible that are impossible won't be enough.

 

 

I'm guessing you have no clue what the meaning of omnipotent is.

[MDC 7,652]

The only thing your post proves is that you have bought into misinformation.

 

 

http://thereforegodexists.com/2015/02/where-does-the-bible-say-that-the-earth-is-6000-years-old/

Institute for Christian Research says any interpretation of the Bible has the earth between 6,000 - 15,000 years old. Here's a link to the article you won't read:

 

http://www.icr.org/article/how-old-earth-according-bible/

 

This seems to be one of those "metaphorical" parts of the Bible.

[Frank M 181]

I'm guessing you have no clue what the meaning of omnipotent is.

I'm certain you don't know what the word prove is.

[tanatastic 2,062]

What if you're a person who believes in God, believes in Jesus, believes in not committing sins, and believes there's an eternal afterlife if you live in a Godly manner, but realizes that Jonah and the Whale and Noah's Ark are just fables created years ago to promote the powers of God? Can't you still be a Christian and not believe all the nonsense that goes along with it?

No I don't believe you can. I used to wonder this as well and was floored when I learned people took it as truth. That' sounds great as a compromise for the 2 opposing sides but the devouts will tell you that's cheating. It's all or nothing, not to me but to the people that run the farce. If I'm a diick for saying this, fine. I will say this...if Christians came out and declared that the bible stories are just fables meant to convey a message, but that Christ and all that were still true...I'd have massively more respect for it and understand how people could believe. It's the devotion to the obviously untrue that makes me belittle and act like a priick towards their beliefs.

 

The whole thing just massively fails the smell test. I can see how illiterate uneducated ancient and midevil folks fell for it. I do not understand how modern people do.

This is 100% completely word for word how I feel about any and all religion. Right on the nose.

[tanatastic 2,062]

Can you prove one of the stories from the Bible is not true?

LOLOLOL that's about the easiest thing in the world to do. Noah ark couldn't hold that many animals including Trex and all the dinosaurs. Also they couldn't walk from one end of the earth to the other as only a pair.

 

Done. Do I win? Didn't think so. The debate rages on...inexplicably.

 

I'll throw in a bonus debunking...The earth is not 10k years old. We can prove that. Many many many dif ways. Like as in its not a debate...it's not up for discussion...it's a fact. Bible done, whole religeon debunked. Need I go on? It's embarrassing.

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

Jesus loves the poor and sick. Republicans despise them.

[Sho Nuff 720]

Jesus loves the poor and sick. Republicans despise them.

As bad as others are...uour political trolling is worse...just stop.

[Magnificent Bastard 191]

As bad as others are...uour political trolling is worse...just stop.

Who the F are you? Don't like it move on. You're so non descript I thought you were the drunk guy, shotsup. Be more interesting or go away.