parrot 789 Posted December 11, 2008 Same reason a christian would want to celebrate Halloween/All Hallow's Eve. Because celebrating is fun. I celebrate St. Patrick's Day and I'm not Irish or Catholic. I celebrate Cince de Mayo and I'm not Messican. I celebrate Mardi Gras and I dont even know what that is supposed to be for except filming Girls Gone Wild dvds. Bigtrain sighting! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronToe Nedney 0 Posted December 11, 2008 Wilson's Nails Wilson runs a nail factory and decides his business needs a bit of advertising. He has a chat with a friend who works in marketing and he offers to make a TV ad for Wilson's Nails. "Give me a week," says the friend, "and I'll be back with a tape." A week goes by and the marketing executive comes to see Wilson. He puts a cassette in the video and presses play. A Roman soldier is busy nailing Jesus to the cross. He turns to face the camera and says with a grin "Use Wilson's Nails, they'll hold anything." Wilson goes mad shouting: "What is the matter with you? They'll never show that on TV. Give it another try, but no more Romans crucifying Jesus!" Another week goes by and the marketing man comes back to see Wilson with another tape. He puts it in the machine and hits play. This time the camera pans out from a Roman standing with his arms folded to show Jesus on the cross. The Roman looks up at him and says 'Wilson's Nails, they'll hold anything'. Wilson is beside himself. "You don't understand: I don't want anything with Jesus on the cross! Now listen, I'll give you one last chance. Come back in a week with an advertisement that I can broadcast." A week passes and Wilson waits impatiently. The marketing executive arrives and puts on the new video. A naked man with long hair, gasping for breath, is running across a field. About a dozen Roman soldiers come over the hill, hot on his trail. One of them turns to camera and says 'If only we had used Wilson's Nails!'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
naomi 356 Posted December 11, 2008 I just think it's overly egocentric of us to think there's something truly special about our inner selves. So special that it defies the laws of physics. By your rationale, the matter that constitutes ourselves is not sufficient to produce consciousness. There must be some other force at play able to produce that uniquely subjective quality. And yet, where else in the Universe does this happen? Gravity does not exist as a thing per se, but is generated by massive amounts of matter. Electormagnetic energy is not a concrete thing, as a tree or a car is, but it exists and is produced through the movements of subatomic matter. And in the example above, all Heat is is the movement of atoms. All these qualities, while not existing in and of themselves, are produced through the interactions of matter at some level. Consciousness is no different. It emerges from the matter that constitutes our nervous systems. The notion of a soul just doesn't jive with me. First of all, the concept itself was borrowed from the Platonic essence. Plato asserted that there was a distinction between the tangible, concrete world and the world of forms. Thus we have souls. And that idea, the idea we continue in some form after our earthly life ends, is more comforting than the idea that oblivion awaits us. So what happens when we die? And I'm comfortable with leaving it at that. The whole soul/afterlife issue seems to be an idea meant to console than actually describe what takes place in reality. As this is one of the major aims of all religions, provide the comfort of certainty in a reality which has the foundation of pure chaos, I cannot simply believe in it. And for the record, I don't think you're wrong in believing what you do. I think it's absolutley alright to hold disparate views of reality. If only the uber religious adopted the same view. Here's a good essay by Tom Wolfe that deals with a lot of what's being discussed here: http://www.orthodoxytoday.org/articles/WolfeSoulDied.php Egocentric or we were designed with knowledge of self for a reason. IF we were designed to have consciousness-in the image of God, and we're wholly subject to him, that's not a peaceful place to be. IF it's so, it's a good unsettling reality to believe. The only thing that can make a difference is a true relationship with your creator. If you're convicted, you will remain unsettled if you're trying to take out an eternal life insurance policy with how you live your life, what difference you're making. I think by the grace of God man can be convicted of his dependency, and it's certainly counter pride, and the only thing that winds up giving him peace is knowing his intercessor. In other words I don't understand how it can be comforting to concede to eternal life because of the potential risk in not doing so, and then set about ensuring you escape potential wrath. If you deal with that on your own, you shouldn't have peace. It's so much more peaceful to cancel it out. You could say since religion is powerfully ingrained in the society that has it, as if often the case, that even though it was designed to keep people in check, give them an imaginary dynamic to believe in but one that actually doesn't sound pleasant in aspects, it is still comforting to err on the side of it...just in case. Comfort is still the main driver. In other words the pressure makes people believe in something that isn't that peaceful, in order to have peace considering how influential religion is around that individual. I understand that, I don't see it as personal dynamic, but it is one way to seek to discredit, or try to reason something out and naturally the person who may not consider it a personal dynamic will be thought to be willingly blinded. Speaking of our base motivations, evolutionist have looked at the reasoning for why religion is embraced, and starting at 1:20 here this speaker presents some interesting thoughts. Plato made thoughts on the soul popular but he's not the first person to think about the concept, and I think probably everyone has a tendency towards entertaining the thought. Why do you think our reality has the foundation of pure chaos? I'm thinking on the local planetary level and can see there's potential out there, but if you have another view, that nature didn't come about from happenstance, then elements of nature lend themselves as being constant with that. They don't counter it...doesn't mean they prove it, either. Do you mean that nature has lent itself to sustaining (for some time at least) life as we know it, it's something that has happened within chaos? Enough chaos and chaos for a while can net within it some temporary order. You raise a lot of interesting points that I haven't spoken to, want to, and I'll read your link and get back to you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phillybear 366 Posted December 11, 2008 Okay, so should I be okay with my kids PUBLIC schools' celebrating it? Or should I fight it or forbid my kids' participation, or what? I think obviously if it's purely a religious occasion, with all non-believers to be excluded, I should probably go ahead and enlist in the War on Christmas. Yes. And make sure you drop off the kids at school nice and early Dec 25th. Because that is the end result of the war on Christmas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted December 11, 2008 You are teaching your kids to believe that they are God. The center of all so to speak. That's what I don't understand about atheist. We are ignorant because we believe in something based on faith. But you are inteligent because your belief that there is in no God is basically your faith. You believe in you and no one else. You are banking on being right about God and the faith you have about his nonexistence. Question for atheists- You are walking down the street and suddenly have massive chest pains. Someone calls 911 and you are in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. You are dying. You think of your family, friends, etc. Do you say anything to God? Just in case? Ah, the old CYA version of Christianity. You talk about belief like it's a choice. Either you believe or you don't. I can no more make myself believe in god than I can in elves, gremlins, or eskimoes. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josh wiley 58 Posted December 11, 2008 okay, here's a new vantage point to think about regarding this topic. i believe that there is a creator who at some point created this universe and/or multiple universes, but i don't know if that is the same creator that everyone goes to church to praise. this is why. when you let the size of our universe (somewhere around 13.5 light years to the end of what we know to be the finite exterior) sink in, it really becomes foolish and somewhat arrogant to think that we are the only place with life. now with that in mind, if god sent his son to our planet did he then subsequently deploy a son to all planets that happen to have life? otherwise god would only be relevant in our neck of the woods. those people that think we are special on our speck of dust in this vast expanse beyond most people's cognitive abilities have to seriously consider how absurd that is. to me the bible is a good book of "metaphorical" stories designed to teach morals and a general sense of how to treat others. it is not, however a guide to the physical laws of nature. so to sum up. if you believe that there may be, oh i don't know 1 other planet with life out of billions of galaxies, do you also believe that god's son was sent to that planet also and died for all their sins? do they have the same bible or do they have their own? the reason that our bible still holds up is that we have YET to make contact with other beings mainly due to the relatively young age of our planet. matter of fact, the reason that many societies may not ever reach a point where they could contact those of other planets, is that as soon as they become technologically capable enough they cannot remain peaceful enough to survive with the other countries or whatever they may be called somewhere else. any thoughts? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jets24 6 Posted December 11, 2008 Okay, so should I be okay with my kids PUBLIC schools' celebrating it? Or should I fight it or forbid my kids' participation, or what? I think obviously if it's purely a religious occasion, with all non-believers to be excluded, I should probably go ahead and enlist in the War on Christmas. You think Christmas its purely a religious occasion? I also find it hysterical that you don't think you have already enlisted in the war on Christmas. HTH Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,790 Posted December 11, 2008 Ah, the old CYA version of Christianity. You talk about belief like it's a choice. Either you believe or you don't. I can no more make myself believe in god than I can in elves, gremlins, or eskimoes. Does this help? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BunnysBastatrds 2,435 Posted December 11, 2008 Ah, the old CYA version of Christianity. You talk about belief like it's a choice. Either you believe or you don't. I can no more make myself believe in god than I can in elves, gremlins, or eskimoes. It is a choice. You choose to believe or not believe. I choose to believe there is something greater than me. It sounds like you believe you are it. And that's fine. Have you ever been to The grand Canyon? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,790 Posted December 11, 2008 okay, here's a new vantage point to think about regarding this topic. i believe that there is a creator who at some point created this universe and/or multiple universes, but i don't know if that is the same creator that everyone goes to church to praise. this is why. when you let the size of our universe (somewhere around 13.5 light years to the end of what we know to be the finite exterior) sink in, it really becomes foolish and somewhat arrogant to think that we are the only place with life. now with that in mind, if god sent his son to our planet did he then subsequently deploy a son to all planets that happen to have life? otherwise god would only be relevant in our neck of the woods. those people that think we are special on our speck of dust in this vast expanse beyond most people's cognitive abilities have to seriously consider how absurd that is. to me the bible is a good book of "metaphorical" stories designed to teach morals and a general sense of how to treat others. it is not, however a guide to the physical laws of nature. so to sum up. if you believe that there may be, oh i don't know 1 other planet with life out of billions of galaxies, do you also believe that god's son was sent to that planet also and died for all their sins? do they have the same bible or do they have their own? the reason that our bible still holds up is that we have YET to make contact with other beings mainly due to the relatively young age of our planet. matter of fact, the reason that many societies may not ever reach a point where they could contact those of other planets, is that as soon as they become technologically capable enough they cannot remain peaceful enough to survive with the other countries or whatever they may be called somewhere else. any thoughts? ...and on the 8th day, God created paragraphs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jets24 6 Posted December 11, 2008 okay, here's a new vantage point to think about regarding this topic. i believe that there is a creator who at some point created this universe and/or multiple universes, but i don't know if that is the same creator that everyone goes to church to praise. this is why. when you let the size of our universe (somewhere around 13.5 light years to the end of what we know to be the finite exterior) sink in, it really becomes foolish and somewhat arrogant to think that we are the only place with life. now with that in mind, if god sent his son to our planet did he then subsequently deploy a son to all planets that happen to have life? otherwise god would only be relevant in our neck of the woods. those people that think we are special on our speck of dust in this vast expanse beyond most people's cognitive abilities have to seriously consider how absurd that is. to me the bible is a good book of "metaphorical" stories designed to teach morals and a general sense of how to treat others. it is not, however a guide to the physical laws of nature. so to sum up. if you believe that there may be, oh i don't know 1 other planet with life out of billions of galaxies, do you also believe that god's son was sent to that planet also and died for all their sins? do they have the same bible or do they have their own? the reason that our bible still holds up is that we have YET to make contact with other beings mainly due to the relatively young age of our planet. matter of fact, the reason that many societies may not ever reach a point where they could contact those of other planets, is that as soon as they become technologically capable enough they cannot remain peaceful enough to survive with the other countries or whatever they may be called somewhere else. any thoughts? Sure. One would be to learn how to use proper sentence structure, capital letters, etc. Also, a new paragraph once in awhile would make the reading much more enjoyable for the reader. Other than that, thanks for contributing nothing to our fight about Christmas and bringing it back to the thread topic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jets24 6 Posted December 11, 2008 ...and on the 8th day, God created paragraphs. You suck! See my post following yours. I've got to learn to write less and post more quickly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jets24 6 Posted December 11, 2008 It is a choice. You choose to believe or not believe. I choose to believe there is something greater than me. It sounds like you believe you are it. And that's fine. Have you ever been to The grand Canyon? No but he did see Siousxie naked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,790 Posted December 11, 2008 You suck! See my post following yours. I've got to learn to write less and post more quickly. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josh wiley 58 Posted December 11, 2008 ...and on the 8th day, God created paragraphs. my point exactly. you are so caught up in minutae that you can't see the bigger picture. seems fitting with the topic we're discussing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jets24 6 Posted December 11, 2008 my point exactly. you are so caught up in minutae that you can't see the bigger picture. seems fitting with the topic we're discussing. Not caught up in so much as annoyed by it. If you want people to read your posts, you kind of need to put it in a manner that makes it....you know....legible. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josh wiley 58 Posted December 11, 2008 so noone has an intelligent response to my post. i guess we're just going to get responses having to do with grammar. no wonder i usually don't bother giving my thoughts on boards like this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheNewGirl 1,489 Posted December 11, 2008 It is a choice. You choose to believe or not believe. I choose to believe there is something greater than me. It sounds like you believe you are it. And that's fine. Have you ever been to The grand Canyon? What does the Grand Canyon have to do with this? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jets24 6 Posted December 11, 2008 so noone has an intelligent response to my post. i guess we're just going to get responses having to do with grammar. no wonder i usually don't bother giving my thoughts on boards like this. thanks for stopping by Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,790 Posted December 11, 2008 What does the Grand Canyon have to do with this? That's where Jesus appeared to Tom Cruise. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IAMWood 6 Posted December 11, 2008 I quit reading in the middle of page 2 but I picture 'God' to be some being we don't understand playing a crazy game of sims and laughs at some of the crap people pull. Thinks it is funny when people worship 'him' and makes fun of delusional people who blindly follow 'him'. I would think if there is a supreme being he would respect anyone with some doubt and a open mind. The search for the truth should be more prevalent in religion, not blind faith. Why I respect science more, it's basis is a search for the truth. I mean seriously, how do you separate all the lies and misconceptions in religion to choose one over the other, like catholics used to believe the earth was the center of the universe and killed people telling them different, how can you be a part of that, even today, I don't get it... For me it comes down to where did matter come from and why is there gravitational force between masses? Science can't answer this and religion doesn't make sense to me. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
surferskin 30 Posted December 11, 2008 I wasn't the first to call someone a hypocrite, that was surfer. And I do admit to being a hypocrite, but not on this point. Me going to church doesn't make me a hypocrite any more than going to a mosque would make you a hypocrite. It's pretty simple really. But let's get off this point; I have a question regarding you guys' original point about Christmas. Do you feel non-Christians should not celebrate Christmas? You can obviously celebrate any holiday you want, I just think it's odd. You don't see me celebrating hanukkah, do ya? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
IronToe Nedney 0 Posted December 11, 2008 so noone has an intelligent response to my post. i guess we're just going to get responses having to do with grammar. no wonder i usually don't bother giving my thoughts on boards like this. You make too much sense, of course it gets ignored by the god fearing bunch. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
phillybear 366 Posted December 11, 2008 so noone has an intelligent response to my post. i guess we're just going to get responses having to do with grammar. no wonder i usually don't bother giving my thoughts on boards like this. I like turtles. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheNewGirl 1,489 Posted December 11, 2008 That's where Jesus appeared to Tom Cruise. Why would Jesus appear to a Scientologist (aka alien)? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
titans&bucs&bearsohmy! 2,745 Posted December 11, 2008 What does the Grand Canyon have to do with this? Because apparently, the fact that a river can wash out a big ass crack in some rock over the course of thousands of years is proof of god. I know, it makes no sense, don't worry about it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,790 Posted December 11, 2008 Why would Jesus appear to a Scientologist (aka alien)? Jesus is a Thetan. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
KSB2424 3,148 Posted December 11, 2008 okay, here's a new vantage point to think about regarding this topic. i believe that there is a creator who at some point created this universe and/or multiple universes, but i don't know if that is the same creator that everyone goes to church to praise. this is why. when you let the size of our universe (somewhere around 13.5 light years to the end of what we know to be the finite exterior) sink in, it really becomes foolish and somewhat arrogant to think that we are the only place with life. now with that in mind, if god sent his son to our planet did he then subsequently deploy a son to all planets that happen to have life? otherwise god would only be relevant in our neck of the woods. those people that think we are special on our speck of dust in this vast expanse beyond most people's cognitive abilities have to seriously consider how absurd that is. to me the bible is a good book of "metaphorical" stories designed to teach morals and a general sense of how to treat others. it is not, however a guide to the physical laws of nature. so to sum up. if you believe that there may be, oh i don't know 1 other planet with life out of billions of galaxies, do you also believe that god's son was sent to that planet also and died for all their sins? do they have the same bible or do they have their own? the reason that our bible still holds up is that we have YET to make contact with other beings mainly due to the relatively young age of our planet. matter of fact, the reason that many societies may not ever reach a point where they could contact those of other planets, is that as soon as they become technologically capable enough they cannot remain peaceful enough to survive with the other countries or whatever they may be called somewhere else. any thoughts? There is no space. It is an illusion created in the human mind. Sink in. Think of one big LSD trip, nothing is real, only imagined. God knew that the human condition needed the thought of space as a means to self discovery. Dogs know there is no space. Sink in. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,790 Posted December 11, 2008 You make too much sense. the reason that our bible still holds up is that we have YET to make contact with other beings Yep. That's it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
FeelingMN 273 Posted December 11, 2008 so noone has an intelligent response to my post. i guess we're just going to get responses having to do with grammar. no wonder i usually don't bother giving my thoughts on boards like this. This means something. I've seen this before. This means something. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryskids 6,790 Posted December 11, 2008 so noone has an intelligent response to my post. i guess we're just going to get responses having to do with grammar. no wonder i usually don't bother giving my thoughts on boards like this. Here are a few thoughts: - The nearest star is ~4 light years away. Your estimate of the size of the universe is roughly a bazillion zeroes off. - Your comments about life on other planets is completely irrelevant to this discussion. That being said, such life in no way contradicts anything about Christianity. - There may be life on other planets. I expect there is. But you state it like it is a fact. - If so, and if there is a single christian god, I expect that the message would be similar. - What exactly is your point that you so seem to want us to acknowledge? TIA Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
parrot 789 Posted December 11, 2008 You think Christmas its purely a religious occasion? I also find it hysterical that you don't think you have already enlisted in the war on Christmas. HTH If you think Christmas is purely a religious occasion you must live under a rock. Yes, clearly by choosing to celebrate christmas despite not being a Christian, I am part of the War on Christmas. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Blitzen 0 Posted December 11, 2008 You are teaching your kids to believe that they are God. The center of all so to speak. That's what I don't understand about atheist. We are ignorant because we believe in something based on faith. But you are inteligent because your belief that there is in no God is basically your faith. You believe in you and no one else. You are banking on being right about God and the faith you have about his nonexistence. Question for atheists- You are walking down the street and suddenly have massive chest pains. Someone calls 911 and you are in the ambulance on the way to the hospital. You are dying. You think of your family, friends, etc. Do you say anything to God? Just in case? Where to start... You don't teach your kids to have faith in themselves because then they'll believe they're Gods? You do realize that I also teach them about their own limits too...stuff like you can't bend timespace and can't make yourself better if you throw yourself off of a 50 floor building. You can't fly. I think my kids fully realize they are not Gods. I have high blood pressure and I have had one episode where I had some pretty bad chest pains right in the area where one would experience it if one were having a heart attack and after calling 911, I basically kept very still and tried to relax as much as possible until the ambulance arrived. Turned out to be something else. Never once prayed to God that everything would be OK so hate to disappoint. But please feel free to think that I am lying to you if it makes you feel better. Hate to break it to you but you are the one banking on being right about God. I also have faith in friends and family (not just myself) and I don't think they're Gods either. Now why don't you answer the question I posed a few pages back: if abortion clinics are so bad then why did God design the human body to naturally abort conceptions more than 50% of the time? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wiffleball 4,790 Posted December 11, 2008 - What exactly is your point that you so seem to want us to acknowledge? Once we meet the Vulcans, the Christians are focked. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josh wiley 58 Posted December 11, 2008 There is no space. It is an illusion created in the human mind. Sink in. Think of one big LSD trip, nothing is real, only imagined. God knew that the human condition needed the thought of space as a means to self discovery. Dogs know there is no space. Sink in. Wow. If you are serious, i feel very sorry for you. Let me try to simplify what i was saying. If, and i only say if to appease those without common sense, there is life on other planets then are we supposed to believe god's other sons went to those locations? Or is earth so freaking special that he sent his son here and nowhere else? Hopefully the punctuation is okay for the grammar police. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TheNewGirl 1,489 Posted December 11, 2008 Because apparently, the fact that a river can wash out a big ass crack in some rock over the course of thousands of years is proof of god. I know, it makes no sense, don't worry about it. Isn't the fact that a river eroding land over thousands (if not billions) of years is scientific proof, rather, and not proof of god? FWIW, I hate theological discussions, I am shocked I am even in this thread. Wiffle, but what level is Jesus at? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
josh wiley 58 Posted December 11, 2008 Isn't the fact that a river eroding land over thousands (if not billions) of years is scientific proof, rather, and not proof of god? FWIW, I hate theological discussions, I am shocked I am even in this thread. Wiffle, but what level is Jesus at? new girl, he was being sarcastic. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bigtraine 30 Posted December 11, 2008 okay, here's a new vantage point to think about regarding this topic. i believe that there is a creator who at some point created this universe and/or multiple universes, but i don't know if that is the same creator that everyone goes to church to praise. this is why. when you let the size of our universe (somewhere around 13.5 light years to the end of what we know to be the finite exterior) sink in, it really becomes foolish and somewhat arrogant to think that we are the only place with life. now with that in mind, if god sent his son to our planet did he then subsequently deploy a son to all planets that happen to have life? otherwise god would only be relevant in our neck of the woods. those people that think we are special on our speck of dust in this vast expanse beyond most people's cognitive abilities have to seriously consider how absurd that is. to me the bible is a good book of "metaphorical" stories designed to teach morals and a general sense of how to treat others. it is not, however a guide to the physical laws of nature. so to sum up. if you believe that there may be, oh i don't know 1 other planet with life out of billions of galaxies, do you also believe that god's son was sent to that planet also and died for all their sins? do they have the same bible or do they have their own? the reason that our bible still holds up is that we have YET to make contact with other beings mainly due to the relatively young age of our planet. matter of fact, the reason that many societies may not ever reach a point where they could contact those of other planets, is that as soon as they become technologically capable enough they cannot remain peaceful enough to survive with the other countries or whatever they may be called somewhere else. any thoughts? Everybody knows you never go full retard. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jerryskids 6,790 Posted December 11, 2008 Once we meet the Vulcans, the Christians are focked. I remember when Spock went into heat and had to fock a Vulcan chick or go nuts. Basically that translated to me into... the average human male at any time. If the Vulcans put together such an army, I'd put them on par with humans. If not, we'd biotch slap them and rape and pillage their wimmen. Because that's how we roll. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites