Self Defense Killing in Florida...Geeks got an opinion?

[MDC 6,609]

I agree. It shouldn't be that way though. If the DA didn't think there was enough charges then that's how it should be. It shouldn't come to public pressure to do your job. The whole thing is just plain wacko.

 

At this point, with so much media and public eyes, an arrest simply HAD to be made. There really was no other choice. If he's guilty then that's fine and I hope he goes to jail for a long time, BUT on the off chance that Zimmerman is indeed innocent and it comes out that he was the guy on the ground yelling for help or whatnot then its really sad that a person was charged for murder on public pressure.

 

I mostly blame the stupid law in Florida that lets a guy like Zimmerman shoot an unarmed minor dead without even standing trial to account for his actions. That's what's wacko.

 

Between this and the 2000 elections it seems like Florida is home to a lot of stupid people who don't know how to govern themselves.

[Mungwater 593]

I mostly blame the stupid law in Florida that lets a guy like Zimmerman shoot an unarmed minor dead without even standing trial to account for his actions. That's what's wacko.

 

Between this and the 2000 elections it seems like Florida is home to a lot of stupid people who don't know how to govern themselves.

 

The problem with Florida is there are three distinct regions of it, up north is the most redneck you'll find, middle is all old folks, bottom is the latino.

 

You add all those groups up and it's a perfect storm of batshit crazy

[parrot 789]

I mostly blame the stupid law in Florida that lets a guy like Zimmerman shoot an unarmed minor dead without even standing trial to account for his actions. That's what's wacko.

 

Between this and the 2000 elections it seems like Florida is home to a lot of stupid people who don't know how to govern themselves.

 

You're going to continue to beat this drum even now that he's been charged and by all appearances will be going to trial?

[kutulu 1,598]

Prosecutors face steep hurdles to win a second-degree murder conviction against a neighbourhood watch volunteer charged in the shooting death of unarmed teenager Trayvon Martin, experts say. George Zimmerman was charged after a public campaign to make an arrest in the shooting that galvanized the US for weeks. Now the prosecutor and her team will have to prove Zimmerman intentionally went after Martin instead of shooting him in self-defence, to refute arguments that a Florida law empowered him to use deadly force.

 

Zimmerman, 28, who turned himself in at a county jail after prosecutor Angela Corey announced the charge, was to appear before a magistrate on Thursday and plead not guilty in the February 26 shooting of the 17-year-old that set off a nationwide debate about racial profiling and the rights to self-defence.

 

"He is concerned about getting a fair trial and a fair presentation," his attorney, Mark O'Mara said. "He is a client who has a lot of hatred focused on him. I'm hoping the hatred settles down ... he has the right to his own safety and the case being tried before a judge and jury."

 

Speaking on NBC's Today show, Mr O'Mara said Zimmerman is stressed and very tired and hoping to get bail. "He wants to be out (of jail) to be able to help with his defence, but overall he is doing ok," Mr O'Mara told NBC.

 

Meanwhile, Mr Martin's mother, who has campaigned with the rest of the teen's family for an arrest and prosecution, said she thought the shooting was an accident.

 

Asked on Today what she would say to Zimmerman face-to-face, Sybrina Fulton said she wanted an apology, then added: "I believe it was an accident. I believe that it just got out of control and he couldn't turn the clock back." She did not say more about how she thinks the shooting happened.

 

Legal experts said Corey chose a tough route with the murder charge, which could send Zimmerman to prison for life if he's convicted, over manslaughter, which usually carries 15-year prison terms and covers reckless or negligent killings.

 

The prosecutors must prove Zimmerman's shooting of Martin was rooted in hatred or ill will and counter his claims that he shot Martin to protect himself while patrolling his gated community in the Orlando suburb of Sanford. Zimmerman's lawyers would only have to prove by a preponderance of evidence - a relatively low legal standard - that he acted in self-defence at a pretrial hearing to prevent the case from going to trial.

 

There's a "high likelihood it could be dismissed by the judge even before the jury gets to hear the case," Florida defence attorney Richard Hornsby said.

~belfasttelegraph.com

[MDC 6,609]

You're going to continue to beat this drum even now that he's been charged and by all appearances will be going to trial?

 

Yes, I am going to continue to think the stand your ground law in Florida is stupid.

[Cruzer 1,994]

There's a "high likelihood it could be dismissed by the judge even before the jury gets to hear the case," Florida defence attorney Richard Hornsby said.

 

~belfasttelegraph.com

If you had a dollar for everytime a defense attorney said something like this you could end world hunger.

[jerryskids 6,049]

Martin's Mom thinks the shooting was an accident:

 

 

 

Trayvon Martin's mom Sybrina Fulton said in an interview on the "Today" show Thursday that she believes it was "an accident" that George Zimmerman shot and killed her son in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26.

 

"I believe it was an accident," Fulton said. "I believe that it just got out of control, and he couldn't turn the clock back. I would ask him, did he know that that was a minor, that that was a teenager and that he did not have a weapon? I would ask him that I understand that his family is hurting, but think about our family that lost our teenage son. I mean, it's just very difficult to live with day in and day out. I'm sure his parents can pick up the phone and call him, but we can't pick up the phone and call Trayvon anymore."

 

Zimmerman, who is being charged with second-degree murder, is currently being held in protective custody at the Seminole County jail, awaiting a court appearance.

 

Earlier in the interview, Fulton said she is prepared to endure the trial, "even if that means that he may be found not guilty."

 

"We just want him to be held accountable for what he's done," Fulton said. "And by him not being arrested, that would not have been done. So we are happy that he was arrested so that the committee gives his side of the story."

 

Tracy Martin, Trayvon's father, said he believes police bungled the investigation, which led to the delay in Zimmerman's arrest.

 

"First and foremost, I think had the Sanford Police Department done a thorough investigation from the beginning, George Zimmerman would have been locked up from day one, and there wouldn't have been such a huge public outcry for the arrest," Tracy Martin said. "And if, in fact, we had to plead our case to public officials just to get him arrested, if that's what we have to continue to do to plead our case, then that's what we'll do."

 

 

My link

 

That can't help with a Murder 2 conviction.

[Vikings4ever 535]

I mostly blame the stupid law in Florida that lets a guy like Zimmerman shoot an unarmed minor dead without even standing trial to account for his actions. That's what's wacko.

 

Between this and the 2000 elections it seems like Florida is home to a lot of stupid people who don't know how to govern themselves.

There's plenty of cases (perfectly legitimate cases) of people not going on trial for self defense killings. If the police and the attorneys believe someone acted in self defense, charges aren't going to be brought. Charges generally aren't brought unless the prosecutors believe there's enough evidence for a conviction.

 

That being said, you can certainly argue that the Florida Stand Your Ground law lowers the bar for such cases. And if you believe that the law should be reworked, fine. But I believe in the essence of the law; an innocent person fearing for their life should not be required to try to flee before using deadly force.

[Vikings4ever 535]

If you had a dollar for everytime a defense attorney said something like this you could end world hunger.

True, but (I believe) it's not Zimmerman's lawyer saying that. It's an impartial third party with expertise.

[KSB2424 3,098]

Martin's Mom

I will say this about Trayvon's parents. They seem like solid people. In every interveiw or TV appearance they've been on they are sticking up for their son, they are grieving and they are speaking out. However they are polite and sane when doing so. They aren't the ones fanning the flames like others or going all crazy like some. And it's their son thats dead. They've handled themselves very well IMO.

[phillybear 365]

I will say this about Trayvon's parents. They seem like solid people. In every interveiw or TV appearance they've been on they are sticking up for their son, they are grieving and they are speaking out. However they are polite and sane when doing so. They aren't the ones fanning the flames like others or going all crazy like some. And it's their son thats dead. They've handled themselves very well IMO.

 

I especially liked the part when they copyrighted some stuff so they can sell some merchandise and make some bucks off their serial criminal son's death.

[The Next Generation 10]

Martin's Mom thinks the shooting was an accident:

 

 

 

 

 

My link

 

That can't help with a Murder 2 conviction.

 

Other attorneys weren't surprised that Corey went for the maximum.

 

"Prosecutors look for leverage. They'll typically overcharge knowing that gives them wiggle room for plea discussions," said Derek Byrd, incoming president of the Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. "She knows that she could offer him manslaughter at some point or get in front of a jury that could split the verdict and agree on a lesser offense."

 

Read more: http://www.abc15.com...t#ixzz1rqGumfXd

[DankNuggs 305]

Once i heard second degree murder, I though the charge was just political... then i heard they can consider manslaughter charges at the same time, so it won't be a Casey Anthony over-charge that lets zimm walk free on a technicality...

 

What a sideshow... Zimm's new lawyer at least seems competant..

[IGotWorms 3,890]

Other attorneys weren't surprised that Corey went for the maximum.

 

"Prosecutors look for leverage. They'll typically overcharge knowing that gives them wiggle room for plea discussions," said Derek Byrd, incoming president of the Florida Association of Criminal Defense Lawyers. "She knows that she could offer him manslaughter at some point or get in front of a jury that could split the verdict and agree on a lesser offense."

 

Read more: http://www.abc15.com...t#ixzz1rqGumfXd

 

I think this is correct. She started with murder two but I believe she can add manslaughter or even take murder two off the table and reduce the charge to only manslaughter/involuntary manslaughter. But we'll have to see what the evidence is. Maybe there's something out there we aren't privvy to that does back up the murder two charge. And like I've said before, if that voice on the tape can be conclusively established to be Trayvon's, I think that gets you pretty close to murder two.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

. But we'll have to see what the evidence is. Maybe there's something out there we aren't privvy too

 

Who stole Worms' password?

[nikki2200 4]

The prosecutor has a history of not plea bargaining anything.

 

This. She is a tough one.

[nikki2200 4]

Martin's Mom thinks the shooting was an accident:

 

 

 

 

 

My link

 

That can't help with a Murder 2 conviction.

 

So his mother's interview on the Today show is evidence in the case?

[nikki2200 4]

Once i heard second degree murder, I though the charge was just political... then i heard they can consider manslaughter charges at the same time, so it won't be a Casey Anthony over-charge that lets zimm walk free on a technicality...

 

What a sideshow... Zimm's new lawyer at least seems competant..

 

You need to read up on Angela Corey. She is notorious for going for the maximum she can get, doesn't typically offer plea bargains, and is jut pretty ruthless.

 

Once they handed the case to her, I think it was going to get prosecuted, political pressure or not.

[Mungwater 593]

You need to read up on Angela Corey. She is notorious for going for the maximum she can get, doesn't typically offer plea bargains, and is jut pretty ruthless.

 

Once they handed the case to her, I think it was going to get prosecuted, political pressure or not.

 

After all the flak that Florida has over thier legal system, there is no way this guy walks.

 

But I guess we will have to see in the trial.

[IGotWorms 3,890]

After all the flak that Florida has over thier legal system, there is no way this guy walks.

 

But I guess we will have to see in the trial.

 

You never know what's going to happen with a jury. If this case does go to trial, anything is possible.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

I mostly blame the stupid law in Florida that lets a guy like Zimmerman shoot an unarmed minor dead without even standing trial to account for his actions. That's what's wacko.

 

Between this and the 2000 elections it seems like Florida is home to a lot of stupid people who don't know how to govern themselves.

 

Apparently you have missed the news that he has been arrested and charged with 2nd degree murder.

[Mungwater 593]

You never know what's going to happen with a jury. If this case does go to trial, anything is possible.

 

Do you think they'll be able to find an impartial jury? Almost everyone I know has an opinion on this case, and I find it hard to believe that they'll be able to find one in FL.

[Phurfur 70]

You never know what's going to happen with a jury. If this case does go to trial, anything is possible.

Does a Kangaroo Court have a jury?

[Strike 4,659]

Do you think they'll be able to find an impartial jury? Almost everyone I know has an opinion on this case, and I find it hard to believe that they'll be able to find one in FL.

 

Apparently they were able to in the Casey Anthony Trial.

[IGotWorms 3,890]

Do you think they'll be able to find an impartial jury? Almost everyone I know has an opinion on this case, and I find it hard to believe that they'll be able to find one in FL.

 

Yes I think they will. All you need is twelve people (maybe a few more with alternates). As huge as this case has been, there are certainly people out there who have heard very little/nothing about it. And even if they have heard a bit about the case, they are still eligible as jurors if they will swear to the judge that they can still be impartial.

 

Worst case scenario is a change of venue based on pretrial publicity, but that is pretty rare. And this case has received such national attention that a change of venue probably won't make a huge difference.

 

http://www.answers.com/topic/pretrial-publicity

[The Next Generation 10]

You need to read up on Angela Corey. She is notorious for going for the maximum she can get, doesn't typically offer plea bargains, and is jut pretty ruthless.

 

Once they handed the case to her, I think it was going to get prosecuted, political pressure or not.

 

Doesn't have to be a plea bargain for manslaughter. When you charge with the higher offense, murder 2, it includes every lesser offense of that ilk (i.e. manslaughter, aggravated manslaughter, etc..) as a change within it. Therefore, the jury can decide on manslaughter without the prosecutor having any say.

 

"She knows that she could offer him manslaughter at some point or get in front of a jury that could split the verdict and agree on a lesser offense."

[kutulu 1,598]

George Zimmerman, the Neighborhood Watch volunteer arrested yesterday in the fatal shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, faced a judge for the first time this afternoon.

 

Meanwhile, a probable cause affidavit has been filed in the second-degree murder case. In the two-page document, prosecutors offer little new information about the shooting.

 

However, they said in the affidavit that "Zimmerman confronted Martin," an apparent contradiction of Zimmerman's version of the events that led to the shooting.

 

The document says Trayvon's mother identified the screams for help heard in a 911 call as those of her son. It also reveals that investigators interviewed a "friend" of Trayvon's who was talking to him in the leadup to the shooting.

 

Based on the description, it appears the friend was the girl described by Martin family attorneys as his girlfriend.

 

"During this time, Martin was on the phone with a friend and described to her what was happening," the affidavit said. "The witness advised that Martin was scared because he was being followed through the complex by an unknown male and didn't know why."

 

Martin tried to run home, the affidavit says, but was followed by Zimmerman. "Zimmerman got out of his vehicle and followed Martin."

 

The affidavit goes on to say that "Zimmerman disregarded the police dispatcher" who told him to stop, and "continued to follow Martin who was trying to return to his home."

 

Zimmerman, the affidavit says, "confronted Martin and a struggle ensued."

 

According to the affidavit: "Trayvon Martin's mother has reviewed the 911 calls and identified the voice crying for help as Trayvon Martin's. Zimmerman shot Martin in the chest."

 

Zimmerman's first appearance began just after 1:30 p.m. He faces a second-degree murder charge in the Feb. 26 shooting, which sparked international outcry.

 

Zimmerman appeared in a jumpsuit and handcuffs. He was joined by his new attorney, Mark O'Mara. A first-appearance judge found probable cause for the murder charge.

 

The judge set Zimmerman's next court date for May 29 at 1:30 p.m. Zimmerman spoke only once during the hearing, responding "yes sir" to a question.

 

No bond hearing was held. Zimmerman will remain in jail for the time being.

 

After Zimmerman exited, O'Mara asked the judge to seal documents in the court file containing other information -- including witness statements and information.

 

"I am seeking on my clients behalf... that we do a complete sealing of that record," O'Mara said, adding that the sealing would be temporary. The judge agreed.

 

After the hearing, prosecutor Bernie De La Rionda asked reporters gathered outside for patience.

 

"In the rule of law, we have jury trials for a purpose," De La Rionda said. O'Mara echoed that sentiment.

 

"It really, truly, it works," O'Mara said of the judicial system, telling reporters that in a case of this profile, if it doesn't work, "you'll tell us."

 

O'Mara said it made more sense to forgo a bond hearing at this point, electing to give time to allow the fervor surrounding the case to die down. He said his client is in protective custody

~baltimoresun.com

[Mookz 1,308]

I know...I'm bummed. I might just kill someone

 

And then claim self-defense.

 

That seems to be all the rage these days.

[cyclone24 1,911]

That seems to be all the rage these days.

 

 

Make sure they are not black....or you know who will be leading parades in your town.

 

Kill whitey!

[IGotWorms 3,890]

Make sure they are not black....or you know who will be leading parades in your town.

 

Kill whitey!

 

OR, you could just make sure it's really self-defense. Then you probably don't have to worry about anyone having "parades" in your town.

[redtodd 7]

I don't see them winning with the 2nd degree murder charge. The he gets that is if they can prove the crying for help was Martin.

 

Otherwise, they best they can do is manslaughter. It will be interesting to see what happens.

[cyclone24 1,911]

I don't see them winning with the 2nd degree murder charge. The he gets that is if they can prove the crying for help was Martin.

 

Otherwise, they best they can do is manslaughter. It will be interesting to see what happens.

 

 

I dont either....which makes me think either they have some evidence that we dont know about or...and this is where i know nothing about law.......can they throw that out there hoping to plea it down to manslaughter? Or is it all or nothing?

[gocolts 300]

You're going to continue to beat this drum even now that he's been charged and by all appearances will be going to trial?

Well, MDC is the broken record of the Geek Club, repeating himself hundreds of times in an effort to convince himself he is always right.

[penultimatestraw 473]

Martin's Mom thinks the shooting was an accident:

 

 

 

 

 

My link

 

That can't help with a Murder 2 conviction.

Was she there? And she changed her mind: My link

UPDATE, 1:20 p.m. ET: Trayvon Martin's mother Sybrina Fulton, who said on the "Today" show early Thursday that she believed the killing of her son was an "accident," has retracted those comments.

 

"George Zimmerman stalked my son and murdered him in cold blood," told MSNBC in a separate interview.

[gocolts 300]

Was she there? And she changed her mind: My link

 

UPDATE, 1:20 p.m. ET: Trayvon Martin's mother Sybrina Fulton, who said on the "Today" show early Thursday that she believed the killing of her son was an "accident," has retracted those comments.

 

"George Zimmerman stalked my son and murdered him in cold blood," told MSNBC in a separate interview.

 

THat's a pretty big shift. So either she lied this morning or is lying now. Way to make yourself look like a idiot Sybrina.

[penultimatestraw 473]

THat's a pretty big shift. So either she lied this morning or is lying now. Way to make yourself look like a idiot Sybrina.

Or she changed her mind after she learned additional details of the investigation?

[penultimatestraw 473]

Or she changed her mind after she learned additional details of the investigation?

I take that back. She is a lying ho.

[jerryskids 6,049]

 

</h1>

<h1 id="meebo-title">Harvard Prof. Alan Dershowitz: Zimmerman Arrest Affidavit ‘Irresponsible And Unethical’

Harvard University law professor Alan Dershowitz appeared on MSNBC’s Hardball where fill-in host Michel Smerconish asked him his opinions of the arrest warrant issued and carried out for alleged Trayvon Martin murderer, George Zimmerman. Dershowitz called the affidavit justifying Zimmerman’s arrest “not only thin, it’s irresponsible.” He went on to criticize the decision to charge Zimmerman for second degree murder by special prosecutor Angela Corey as being politically motivated. “You’ve seen the affidavit of probable cause. What do you make of it,” Smerconish asked. “It won’t suffice,” Dershowitz replied without hesitation.

 

“Most affidavits of probable cause are very thin. This is so thin that it won’t make it past a judge on a second degree murder charge,” Dershowitz said. “There’s simply nothing in there that would justify second degree murder.”

 

Dershowitz said that the elements that would constitute that crime are non-existent in the affidavit. “It’s not only thin, it’s irresponsible,” said Dershowitz.

 

Dershowitz went on to strongly criticize Corey’s decision to move forward with the case against Zimmerman. “I think what you have here is an elected public official who made a campaign speech last night for reelection when she gave her presentation and overcharged. This case will not – if the evidence is no stronger than what appears in the probable cause affidavit – this case will result in an acquittal.”

 

Smerconish identified the total lack of any mention of the supposed fight that occurred between Martin and Zimmerman prior to Martin being shot. He said he was disappointed that he did not see any mention of that conflict that led to Martin’s murder.

 

“But it’s worse than that,” said Dershowitz. “It’s irresponsible and unethical in not including material that favors the defendant.”

 

“This affidavit does not even make it to probable cause,” Dershowitz concluded. “everything in the affidavit is completely consistent with a defense of self-defense. Everything.”

 

Watch the segment below via MSNBC:

 

 

My link

 

 

 

[IGotWorms 3,890]

Wow those are some really inflammatory statements by Dershowitz. I don't think he's right either. Probable cause affidavits are always conclusory. He's acting like this is an exception and it's not. Maybe its time for ol' Allen to leave his ivory tower and visit an actual courtroom.

[phillybear 365]

Wow those are some really inflammatory statements by Dershowitz. I don't think he's right either. Probable cause affidavits are always conclusory. He's acting like this is an exception and it's not. Maybe its time for ol' Allen to leave his ivory tower and visit an actual courtroom.

 

You are utterly clueless to legal proceedings. I bet you didn't believe Chef wrote "Stinky Britches" either.