Self Defense Killing in Florida...Geeks got an opinion?

[phillybear 366]

I don't doubt that Martin hit Zimmermann, what I doubt is that he initiated the physical confrontation and that lethal force was necessary. Also, the claim that Zimmerman's nose was broken isn't something I've read anywhere - he had a bloody nose but didn't seek any medical treatment that I know of.

 

We went to the hospital a few hours later, in the morning.

 

As someone that has suffered a broken nose or three, you can experience numbness in the nose for a while after the blow. Eventually, the pain comes a knockin' and then most people go seek some medical assistance.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

I think Zimmeran is guilty of murder, or manslaughter at the very least.

 

I hope he is prosecuted, convicted, and spends the rest of his days as some gang's prison b!tch.

Bump.

[MDC 8,077]

He didn't go to the hospital that night but reportedly did go get treatment the next day. Don't know if it was for a broken nose.

 

It might have been for ass covering.

 

I'm not burying this guy - the story is weird. What I'm saying is it's kind of amazing to me that an unarmed kid gets shot dead and the police drag their heels launching an investigation and it may not even go to trial. That is focked up.

[Strike 6,032]

It might have been for ass covering.

 

I'm not burying this guy - the story is weird. What I'm saying is it's kind of amazing to me that an unarmed kid gets shot dead and the police drag their heels launching an investigation and it may not even go to trial. That is focked up.

 

How did the police drag their heels? They took him to the station and interviewed him that night, and have had subsequent interviews. They've interviewed all of the witnesses we keep posting about. A lot of people are up in arms that he hasn't been arrested but I don't know that anyone has shown that they've dragged their heels.

[rallo 139]

The ONLY reason I brought up the pot deal was to embarrass peenie since she said she he was suspended for being tardy.

 

 

i don't FEEL tardy

[IGotWorms 4,063]

He didn't go to the hospital that night but reportedly did go get treatment the next day. Don't know if it was for a broken nose.

 

The next day? Must've been potentially fatal then. Certainly enough to kill a man over after you stalked him.

[Strike 6,032]

The next day? Must've been potentially fatal then. Certainly enough to kill a man over after you stalked him.

 

I really don't get this line of thinking. If someone is beating the tar out of me there's certainly the POTENTIAL for it to be serious. You want to ding the guy because he didn't let the kid REALLY hurt him.

 

[IGotWorms 4,063]

I really don't get this line of thinking. If someone is beating the tar out of me there's certainly the POTENTIAL for it to be serious. You want to ding the guy because he didn't let the kid REALLY hurt him.

 

 

It's debatable in a typical scenario, sure. But not here where Zimmerman stalked the victim against the command of 911 dispatch.

 

You seem to think the victim asked to be killed for beating the crap out of Zimmerman (if that did indeed happen). Well why didn't Zimmerman deserve to get the crap beat out of him for harassing and stalking the victim? Where's the personal accountability for Zimmerman's actions?

[KSB2424 3,174]

Serious question. If a White-African American, that would be an albino or a person of mixed race like say an Obama. If an albino or an obama shot and killed a black guy would that be considered a hate crime?

 

Or actually let me ask it a differnet way.

 

If NewbieJr. (Orange - European American) shot and killed a white guy, is that a hate crime?

Can somebody help me here?

 

I'm building a hate crime matrix so we can all know when and when not to get outraged.

 

What about if a Southern Latino of darker skin shot and killed a black guy? Is that an outrageable offense? Or is that one okay?

 

Hopefully by the end of my excercise we can all simply plug in the skin color /race/ ethniciy variables to an excel spreadsheet and we'll know when to be outraged or not.

[Strike 6,032]

It's debatable in a typical scenario, sure. But not here where Zimmerman stalked the victim against the command of 911 dispatch.

 

You seem to think the victim asked to be killed for beating the crap out of Zimmerman (if that did indeed happen). Well why didn't Zimmerman deserve to get the crap beat out of him for harassing and stalking the victim? Where's the personal accountability for Zimmerman's actions?

 

First of all we STILL don't really know what happened at the time of the altercation. Second, as a good lawyer over at FBG's has noted repeatedly in the 83 page thread going on over there on this issue, the person who is defending them self during an incident such as this can change repeatedly over the course of the incident. It's very feasible that at some point Martin was acting in self defense and then at another point Zimmerman was. So Martin may have been justified in his actions and so might Zimmerman. Unfortunately, the result is a dead kid. But unless we can piece together what happened a little better it's going to be hard to prosecute Zimmerman. And that's what we're talking about, right? Prosecuting Zimmerman. And our legal system is based on the concept that it's better to let a lot of guilty people go free rather than wrongly convict one innocent one. I thought you were an attorney. If so, you should be familiar with that concept. So if the evidence is ambiguous it's going to be hard to convict this guy regardless of what any of us thinks personally.

[parrot 790]

It's debatable in a typical scenario, sure. But not here where Zimmerman stalked the victim against the command of 911 dispatch.

 

You seem to think the victim asked to be killed for beating the crap out of Zimmerman (if that did indeed happen). Well why didn't Zimmerman deserve to get the crap beat out of him for harassing and stalking the victim? Where's the personal accountability for Zimmerman's actions?

 

You keep saying he stalked him. Every legal definition of stalking I can find defines it as a "repeated" behavior.

 

If Zimmerman harassed Martin, Martin should have contacted police and filed a report. He had every right to do that. He doesn't however, have the right to physically assault him in response, and Zimmerman does have the right to defend himself with lethal force if that is what transpired.

[MDC 8,077]

How did the police drag their heels? They took him to the station and interviewed him that night, and have had subsequent interviews. They've interviewed all of the witnesses we keep posting about. A lot of people are up in arms that he hasn't been arrested but I don't know that anyone has shown that they've dragged their heels.

 

My understanding was that it took a few days before the police launched a formal investigation.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

First of all we STILL don't really know what happened at the time of the altercation. Second, as a good lawyer over at FBG's has noted repeatedly in the 83 page thread going on over there on this issue, the person who is defending them self during an incident such as this can change repeatedly over the course of the incident. It's very feasible that at some point Martin was acting in self defense and then at another point Zimmerman was. So Martin may have been justified in his actions and so might Zimmerman. Unfortunately, the result is a dead kid. But unless we can piece together what happened a little better it's going to be hard to prosecute Zimmerman. And that's what we're talking about, right? Prosecuting Zimmerman. And our legal system is based on the concept that it's better to let a lot of guilty people go free rather than wrongly convict one innocent one. I thought you were an attorney. If so, you should be familiar with that concept. So if the evidence is ambiguous it's going to be hard to convict this guy regardless of what any of us thinks personally.

 

While I am no FBG lawyer, I don't believe that the person who initiates the fight can ever say that it was self defense, regardless of whether he is getting his ass kicked or in fear of his life. Only the original victim can claim self-defense and/or use the Stand Your Ground defense.

[Vikings4ever 570]

While I am no FBG lawyer, I don't believe that the person who initiates the fight can ever say that it was self defense, regardless of whether he is getting his ass kicked or in fear of his life. Only the original victim can claim self-defense and/or use the Stand Your Ground defense.

Martin is the one who made it physical. Now, did he make it physical because he feared for his life? Or did he made it physical because he was mad? That's one of the big questions.

[MDC 8,077]

Martin is the one who made it physical.

 

According to who?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

Martin is the one who made it physical. Now, did he make it physical because he feared for his life? Or did he made it physical because he was mad? That's one of the big questions.

 

I thought that we didn't know that. There have been several arguments on both sides as to who was screaming and the only person who says that Martin was the aggressor, was Zimmerman. Sorry, I have to hold off on believing him given his 911 call and the world of sh!t he is in.

 

Strike's argument was that it could have started that Martin can claim self-defense and then Zimmerman could because the situation changed. My statement is that is not the case. Only the original "victim" can claim self-defense.

[Vikings4ever 570]

I thought that we didn't know that. There have been several arguments on both sides as to who was screaming and the only person who says that Martin was the aggressor, was Zimmerman. Sorry, I have to hold off on believing him given his 911 call and the world of sh!t he is in.

 

Strike's argument was that it could have started that Martin can claim self-defense and then Zimmerman could because the situation changed. My statement is that is not the case. Only the original "victim" can claim self-defense.

There's an eyewitness that said Martin was on top of Zimmerman (who, according to the witness, was definitely the one shouting for help) trying to bash his brains out. Zimmerman's injuries are consistent with that.

 

So I'll amend my statement; based on the information we have now, it seems like Martin's the one who made it physical.

[Strike 6,032]

While I am no FBG lawyer, I don't believe that the person who initiates the fight can ever say that it was self defense, regardless of whether he is getting his ass kicked or in fear of his life. Only the original victim can claim self-defense and/or use the Stand Your Ground defense.

 

Of course he can. If I attack you and you subdue me you aren't entitled to get your jollies by beating me more after I'm subdued. If you continue to beat me after you've removed whatever threat I posed and I pull out a gun and shoot you self defense passed from you to me at the point in time when you continued beating me without needing to.

[rallo 139]

The next day? Must've been potentially fatal then. Certainly enough to kill a man over after you stalked him.

 

What IS potentially fatal would be someone on top of you continually bashing your head into the pavement

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

There's an eyewitness that said Martin was on top of Zimmerman (who, according to the witness, was definitely the one shouting for help) trying to bash his brains out. Zimmerman's injuries are consistent with that.

 

So I'll amend my statement; based on the information we have now, it seems like Martin's the one who made it physical.

 

Did the eyewitness see how things started?

 

I believe that you are piecing things together in your own mind without all of the facts.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

Of course he can. If I attack you and you subdue me you aren't entitled to get your jollies by beating me more after I'm subdued. If you continue to beat me after you've removed whatever threat I posed and I pull out a gun and shoot you self defense passed from you to me at the point in time when you continued beating me without needing to.

 

Are you implying that somehow, Martin had "subdued" Zimmerman to such an extent that he was no longer a threat and Martin could no longer use deadly force?

 

If so, there is at least one bullet that disagrees with you.

[parrot 790]

What IS potentially fatal would be someone on top of you continually bashing your head into the pavement

 

And/or if this person got ahold of the loaded gun in your waistband.

[Strike 6,032]

Are you implying that somehow, Martin had "subdued" Zimmerman to such an extent that he was no longer a threat and Martin could no longer use deadly force?

 

If so, there is at least one bullet that disagrees with you.

 

I thought we were talking in general? You said it wasn't possible for that type of scenario to exist, not that it didn't exist in this case. But let me throw this one out at you. Say Zimmerman initiated the altercation. Martin popped him in the face as Zimmerman is claiming and then jumped on him. He bashed his head in to the cement. At that point he had the upper hand in the confrontation. He could and probably should have held Zimmerman's arms down or behind his back until help arrived. He chose to continue beating on him and allowed Zimmerman to be a continuing threat, which allowed Zimmerman to grab his gun and shoot Martin. Since Martin was now a threat to Zimmerman it's self defense. Again, we don't know what happened but that is a possible scenario and would justify self defense by Zimmerman.

[Vikings4ever 570]

Did the eyewitness see how things started?

 

I believe that you are piecing things together in your own mind without all of the facts.

To my knowledge, no.

 

And you're right, I am piecing things together without all the facts. Without video evidence, that's what we're all doing. All we can do right now is speculate as to what happened, and that speculation should change as new information gets released.

[posty 2,848]

It's debatable in a typical scenario, sure. But not here where Zimmerman stalked the victim against the command of 911 dispatch.

 

A 911 operator doesn't have any authority... They aren't the police...

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

I thought we were talking in general? You said it wasn't possible for that type of scenario to exist, not that it didn't exist in this case. But let me throw this one out at you. Say Zimmerman initiated the altercation. Martin popped him in the face as Zimmerman is claiming and then jumped on him. He bashed his head in to the cement. At that point he had the upper hand in the confrontation. He could and probably should have held Zimmerman's arms down or behind his back until help arrived. He chose to continue beating on him and allowed Zimmerman to be a continuing threat, which allowed Zimmerman to grab his gun and shoot Martin. Since Martin was now a threat to Zimmerman it's self defense. Again, we don't know what happened but that is a possible scenario and would justify self defense by Zimmerman.

 

If Zimmerman initiates the altercation and Martin gets the upper hand, and then Zimmerman pulls out a gun and pops Martin, then Zimmerman goes to jail. Again, you cannot start a fight, get your ass kicked and then use deadly force because of self-defense.

 

If Zimmerman starts the fight and he is armed, then he is committing a felony. This was not a situation where Zimmerman posed no danger to Martin. Given Martin's corpse, that is obvious.

[Strike 6,032]

If Zimmerman initiates the altercation and Martin gets the upper hand, and then Zimmerman pulls out a gun and pops Martin, then Zimmerman goes to jail. Again, you cannot start a fight, get your ass kicked and then use deadly force because of self-defense.

 

If Zimmerman starts the fight and he is armed, then he is committing a felony. This was not a situation where Zimmerman posed no danger to Martin. Given Martin's corpse, that is obvious.

 

Okay.

[nikki2200 4]

How long does it take to use some goddamm voice recognition software to determine who was on the tape anyway? We have interwebs bloggers that can undeniably determine the POTUS's birth certificate is fake and no one in the friggin country can figure out whose voice was on that tape? What are we living in the goddamm dark ages here?

 

This is what is pissing me off most about this case.

[rallo 139]

How long does it take to use some goddamm voice recognition software to determine who was on the tape anyway? We have interwebs bloggers that can undeniably determine the POTUS's birth certificate is fake and no one in the friggin country can figure out whose voice was on that tape? What are we living in the goddamm dark ages here?

 

This is what is pissing me off most about this case.

 

that... AND... who got the skittles?

[Strike 6,032]

How long does it take to use some goddamm voice recognition software to determine who was on the tape anyway? We have interwebs bloggers that can undeniably determine the POTUS's birth certificate is fake and no one in the friggin country can figure out whose voice was on that tape? What are we living in the goddamm dark ages here?

 

This is what is pissing me off most about this case.

 

Nikki,

 

The Daily Show played the tape last night. 10 times in a row in fact. Enhanced audio from one of the networks. You might want to watch this:

 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/

 

After listening to it please report back on who it was you heard on the tape. TIA.

 

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

Nikki,

 

The Daily Show played the tape last night. 10 times in a row in fact. Enhanced audio from one of the networks. You might want to watch this:

 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/

 

After listening to it please report back on who it was you heard on the tape. TIA.

 

 

The sound that they were trying to break down there was not who was screaming, but whether Zimmerman used a racial slur. While you would think that they could do some voice recognition to determine who was screaming, I would guess that they would have to have enough to compare it to from both subjects.

[Strike 6,032]

The sound that they were trying to break down there was not who was screaming, but whether Zimmerman used a racial slur. While you would think that they could do some voice recognition to determine who was screaming, I would guess that they would have to have enough to compare it to from both subjects.

 

Yeah, Forgot that was the racial slur.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

In one of the neighbor's calls to 911, you can hear the kid screaming for help in the background for a while, and then a gunshot.

 

This guy killed him in cold blood. He was probably standing/leaning over the kid for a while and made the conscious decision to shoot him. I think he should be facing murder charges.

No need for an investigation, Worms has all the answers.

[nikki2200 4]

Nikki,

 

The Daily Show played the tape last night. 10 times in a row in fact. Enhanced audio from one of the networks. You might want to watch this:

 

http://www.thedailyshow.com/

 

After listening to it please report back on who it was you heard on the tape. TIA.

 

 

That was when they were trying to figure out if he said "focking coon". I was talking about figgering out who was screaming for help.

[KSB2424 3,174]

Okay I just read all the reports. Some are conflicting but this much we know:

 

Zimmerman saw Martin, called 911, got out of his vehicle and started to follow him on foot.

911 told him not to follow him.

Zimmerman went back to his vehicle (we know this as the confrontation was near the vehicle)

Near the vehicle an altercation broke out, Zimmerman recieved a broken nose and was bleeding from the back of his head.

Martin was killed via one gunshot wound to the chest.

People came outside and Zimmerman said to one of them to "call the police".

 

Is this right?

[IGotWorms 4,063]

There's an eyewitness that said Martin was on top of Zimmerman (who, according to the witness, was definitely the one shouting for help) trying to bash his brains out. Zimmerman's injuries are consistent with that.

 

So I'll amend my statement; based on the information we have now, it seems like Martin's the one who made it physical.

 

There is definitely a question as to what happened after! Zimmerman started following/harassing the victim and before he shot him. But I wouldn't use this eyewitnesses' account as conclusive evidence of what happened.

 

For one thing from the report I saw, the eyewitness doesn't want to be identified (understandably so) and only provided the name "John". So we can't be sure he even was an eyewitness.

 

But even assuming what he says is true, he didn't really "see" much of anything. From what I gather he caught a quick glimpse of a guy on top of another guy in a red shirt, ran inside to the call the cops, heard a gun shot, looked outside and saw the guy who was on top previously laying there dead. Zimmerman was wearing a red shirt so maybe the victim was on top of him, but the witness could easily be mistaken given what little he apparently saw. And even if the victim was on top of Zimmerman at that point, the eyewitness has no idea what transpired after he went into his home to call the cops. For all we know Zimmerman gained the upper hand in the struggle before shooting the victim.

 

But in some ways it doesn't even matter. Zimmerman unquestionably initiated the whole thing. Let's say the victim did get pissed and was beating up Zimmerman -- that's still Zimmerman's fault. Unless the victim was going to severely harm or kill Zimmerman I see no justification for killing the victim.

 

You fock with the wrong guy, take your lumps and learn a lesson from it. Don't kill the man because he didn't take kindly to you focking with him.

[Recliner Pilot 61]

There is definitely a question as to what happened after! Zimmerman started following/harassing the victim and before he shot him.

 

 

You didn't seem to have any questions when you said this:

 

This guy killed him in cold blood

[IGotWorms 4,063]

Okay I just read all the reports. Some are conflicting but this much we know:

 

Zimmerman saw Martin, called 911, got out of his vehicle and started to follow him on foot.

911 told him not to follow him.

Zimmerman went back to his vehicle (we know this as the confrontation was near the vehicle)

Near the vehicle an altercation broke out, Zimmerman recieved a broken nose and was bleeding from the back of his head.

Martin was killed via one gunshot wound to the chest.

People came outside and Zimmerman said to one of them to "call the police".

 

Is this right?

 

Yes except I am not sure about the following part. On the 911 tape do we know that Zimmerman got out of the car to follow or was he following Martin in the car?

 

What I'm getting at is that Zimmerman clearly got out of the car at some point, but I'm not sure there's corroboration for his story that he had given up and was heading back to his car when the altercation occurred.

[DankNuggs 305]

 

For one thing from the report I saw, the eyewitness doesn't want to be identified (understandably so) and only provided the name "John". So we can't be sure he even was an eyewitness.

 

with spike lee publishing home addresses and all the unchecked fury, I think it's entirely reasonable this John guy doesn't want to be tried by the public media storm. The police took his statement at the scene, so I dont see why him being a witness would be in question... Unless you don't like what he has to say

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,433]

Okay I just read all the reports. Some are conflicting but this much we know:

 

Zimmerman saw Martin, called 911, got out of his vehicle and started to follow him on foot.

911 told him not to follow him.

Zimmerman went back to his vehicle (we know this as the confrontation was near the vehicle)

Near the vehicle an altercation broke out, Zimmerman recieved a broken nose and was bleeding from the back of his head.

Martin was killed via one gunshot wound to the chest.

People came outside and Zimmerman said to one of them to "call the police".

 

Is this right?

The last item is sort of right. According to the witnesses, Zimmerman was asked 2 times what was going on without any response. After the 3rd request, he said, "just call the police"

 

You could also add some things to the mix:

- Martin was speaking with his girlfriend just before the incident

- Zimmerman was found standing over Martin with the gun that killed him

- Sh!tstorm ever since