Trans Kids

[MDC 7,171]

29 minutes ago, BuckSwope said:

Let's break this down.   

My argument:  largely let people make these decisions themselves.  I am against permanent changes in minors.   

 

I am good with that, no hype needed.  All the other dumb things you guys are posting are not my beliefs or positions.     I don't need to call everybody who disagrees with me groomers and sickos, or post dumb things like I would spill the blood of doctors or I am terrified that people on the board want to dress up my son in lipstick and wigs.    This board never stops being entertaining, I will give it that.    "Blood is getting shed"  

Tardcore thinks he’s giving us chills when he says stuff like that. But it’s really doosh-bumps and cringe.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,001]

11 minutes ago, MDC said:

Tardcore thinks he’s giving us chills when he says stuff like that. But it’s really doosh-bumps and cringe.

 If you hadn’t noticed by now, I DGAF what you or others think. 

[TimHauck 2,634]

On 2/10/2023 at 2:16 PM, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

Most kids grew up generations ago knowing how to handle firearms. Now they aren’t allowed to and we have the problems we have now. I read something during the revolutionary war if you were 13 you were handed a gun and went to war

bet none of those kids had time to pretend to be girls 

Did they also walk uphill to school both ways?

[TimHauck 2,634]

17 hours ago, MDC said:

I’ve said it before. The age when minors can make medical decisions for themselves is under 18 in a lot of states, generally 16-17. Ban puberty blockers and surgery for kids below that age and be done with it.

My understanding is that most of the righties here have drawn a hard line at 18.  

And most everyone else here agrees that it really shouldn’t be done prior to at minimum 16/17.    So I think the majority of this thread is quibbling about a year or two, which isn’t going to make much difference IMO, particularly around surgeries.  

The real debate is more around puberty blockers.  If people are mostly done with puberty by 16/17 and we’re agreeing they shouldn’t be available under that, is there really a point to them?  Although to your point about “making medical decisions for themselves,” my understanding is nearly all parents are involved in the decisions for those taking them under that age.  I don’t really have a strong opinion on this, I’m fine if they’re banned under that age, but as is I understand why parents might think that’s in the best interest of their kid.  We could probably do a better job of at least making sure they have a proper diagnosis from someone not trying to profit off them  first though.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,880]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

My understanding is that most of the righties here have drawn a hard line at 18.  

And most everyone else here agrees that it really shouldn’t be done prior to at minimum 16/17.    So I think the majority of this thread is quibbling about a year or two, which isn’t going to make much difference IMO, particularly around surgeries.  

The real debate is more around puberty blockers.  If people are mostly done with puberty by 16/17 and we’re agreeing they shouldn’t be available under that, is there really a point to them?  Although to your point about “making medical decisions for themselves,” my understanding is nearly all parents are involved in the decisions for those taking them under that age.  I don’t really have a strong opinion on this, I’m fine if they’re banned under that age, but as is I understand why parents might think that’s in the best interest of their kid.  We could probably do a better job of at least making sure they have a proper diagnosis from someone not trying to profit off them  first though.

Most people are not done with puberty at 16 or 17. What the f*** are you talking about?  You keep repeating this f****** nonsense. Boys can grow until they're 20 years old.

And how do you determine when somebody has stopped going through puberty? As far as I know, there is no test to determine that. Everybody is different.  

So if we really want to be safe, we should wait until someone is 20/21 years old

[TimHauck 2,634]

3 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Most people are not done with puberty at 16 or 17. What the f*** are you talking about?  You keep repeating this f****** nonsense. Boys can grow until they're 20 years old.

And how do you determine when somebody has stopped going through puberty? As far as I know, there is no test to determine that. Everybody is different.  

So if we really want to be safe, we should wait until someone is 20/21 years old

So you’re saying an 18-19 year old is still a kid?

[TimHauck 2,634]

Cleveland Clinic says “most boys finish growing by age 17” and “most girls attain their peak height by age 16”

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22192-puberty
 

, 

[Engorgeous George 2,171]

16 hours ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

I would let any doctor know that if any surgeries or drugs were given to my child on his orders that I would murder him and at least one of his family members.  

So you go beyond Leviticus, sort of towards Keyzer Soze.

[jerryskids 6,597]

10 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Cleveland Clinic says “most boys finish growing by age 17” and “most girls attain their peak height by age 16”

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22192-puberty
 

, 

I think it depends how you define "growing."  The prefrontal cortex does not finish developing until around 25:

Quote

The development and maturation of the prefrontal cortex occurs primarily during adolescence and is fully accomplished at the age of 25 years. The development of the prefrontal cortex is very important for complex behavioral performance, as this region of the brain helps accomplish executive brain functions.

I don't know what role hormones play in that development, but obviously it is not feasible to wait until 25.  Although that explains why male car insurance is so expensive until 25; their brain's ability to make rational decisions is compromised before then.

Also you brought up a great point in an earlier post:

Quote

The real debate is more around puberty blockers.  If people are mostly done with puberty by 16/17 and we’re agreeing they shouldn’t be available under that, is there really a point to them?

I know you mean in the context of trans, since they have medical value in other contexts.  I don't have a perfect answer, and I don't think there is one.  

[Hardcore troubadour 15,001]

1 minute ago, Engorgeous George said:

So you go beyond Leviticus, sort of towards Keyzer Soze.

Yeah, something like that. 

[Engorgeous George 2,171]

17 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

And you are ignorant and hateful and know nothing about this topic. Dismissed. 

Is this a replacement for "Full Stop"?  I like it.  What is more dismissive than dismissing someone?

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,880]

25 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

So you’re saying an 18-19 year old is still a kid?

No, I'm saying your body may not stop going thru puberty until your 20 years old.  That is when the natural process would be finished,

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,880]

24 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

Cleveland Clinic says “most boys finish growing by age 17” and “most girls attain their peak height by age 16”

https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/articles/22192-puberty

Who cares? EVERYONE is different.  There is no official test to determine if you're still going thru puberty or not that I'm aware of.  Are you?  We kind of just assume that you're officially done when you're 20.

And even if there was, would you guys believe it?  I mean, you don't even believe the science of what a woman actually is.  The point being, we let people go thru the normal puberty process and not use puberty blockers at all.

[BuckSwope 654]

1 hour ago, TimHauck said:

My understanding is that most of the righties here have drawn a hard line at 18.  

And most everyone else here agrees that it really shouldn’t be done prior to at minimum 16/17.    So I think the majority of this thread is quibbling about a year or two, which isn’t going to make much difference IMO, particularly around surgeries.  

The real debate is more around puberty blockers.  If people are mostly done with puberty by 16/17 and we’re agreeing they shouldn’t be available under that, is there really a point to them?  Although to your point about “making medical decisions for themselves,” my understanding is nearly all parents are involved in the decisions for those taking them under that age.  I don’t really have a strong opinion on this, I’m fine if they’re banned under that age, but as is I understand why parents might think that’s in the best interest of their kid.  We could probably do a better job of at least making sure they have a proper diagnosis from someone not trying to profit off them  first though.

I wish this was all that's being "debated".   Soon enough we will get an extreme example of an 11 year old transitioning, and then claims of all the sickos who "support" that around here.  

The bolded is my understanding too, but there have been many examples if things like schools not having to tell parents about things like pronouns and counseling.  I have mixed feelings about that, but that doesn’t largely apply the clinics as far as I've seem.  There I think it's more the concern of if they are getting properly diagnosed and what you and MDC pointed out- they are in a state that allows medical decisions under 18.  Not sure why this wouldn't apply in those cases.  

[RaiderHaters Revenge 4,250]

1 minute ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Who cares? EVERYONE is different.  There is no test to determine if you're still going thru puberty or not that I'm aware of.  Are you?

most boys know they are boys and most girls know they are girls, but that is being overlooked

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,880]

3 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

most boys know they are boys and most girls know they are girls, but that is being overlooked

100%.  I'm talking about letting them go through puberty before they want to transition (i.e. surgery).  Then we wouldn't need these puberty blockers being injected in children.

[Hardcore troubadour 15,001]

“Mixed feelings”. What a load of shite. 

[jerryskids 6,597]

On 2/10/2023 at 3:49 PM, BuckSwope said:

Like with most things, I'd expect the truth to be somewhere in between.  

The tone I get from these places is that once you step in there you are basically considered trans and steered on that path, and they are there to provide counselingand servixes .  My concern is proper diagnosis, since we know in general we are falling behind on mental health and it doesn't seem like these places are well suited for giving proper diagnoses either.  

This is one of my main concerns as well.  When all you have is a hammer, all problems look like nails.  In fact this is a general issue these days:  in an earlier discussion @The Real timschochet commented about following the experts in this and some other areas; one was climate science.  But if all of the funding is for finding evidence to support one position, and articles to the contrary would make you a pariah in the field, your incentives are clear.  DEI is another example:  if you hire someone to do DEI for your company, you can rest assured that they'll find problems, because if they didn't, why does their job exist?

Sorry for the sidetrack.  Back to trans, what you describe is part of the encouragement I've mentioned numerous times as a major concern.

[TimHauck 2,634]

9 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Who cares? EVERYONE is different.  There is no official test to determine if you're still going thru puberty or not that I'm aware of.  Are you?  We kind of just assume that you're officially done when you're 20.

And even if there was, would you guys believe it?  I mean, you don't even believe the science of what a woman actually is.  The point being, we let people go thru the normal puberty process and not use puberty blockers at all.

So you think people shouldn’t be allowed to have gender surgeries until 20/21?

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,880]

2 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

So you think people shouldn’t be allowed to have gender surgeries until 20/21?

I think that's the safe bet - 21 might be pushing it - but I was debating your point about puberty stopping in 16/17 year old kids. 

[MDC 7,171]

2 hours ago, TimHauck said:

My understanding is that most of the righties here have drawn a hard line at 18.  

And most everyone else here agrees that it really shouldn’t be done prior to at minimum 16/17.    So I think the majority of this thread is quibbling about a year or two, which isn’t going to make much difference IMO, particularly around surgeries.  

The real debate is more around puberty blockers.  If people are mostly done with puberty by 16/17 and we’re agreeing they shouldn’t be available under that, is there really a point to them?  Although to your point about “making medical decisions for themselves,” my understanding is nearly all parents are involved in the decisions for those taking them under that age.  I don’t really have a strong opinion on this, I’m fine if they’re banned under that age, but as is I understand why parents might think that’s in the best interest of their kid.  We could probably do a better job of at least making sure they have a proper diagnosis from someone not trying to profit off them  first though.

I’d be fine with banning puberty blockers too. They have known medical side effects and we don’t know what the long term mental health side effects are. And they’re almost certainly over prescribed. There probably are circumstances when they’re appropriate but I doubt that’s a matter of life or death for a kid who’s 12/13 vs. 16/17. Hormone therapy is an option after that. 

[TimHauck 2,634]

7 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

I think that's the safe bet - 21 might be pushing it - but I was debating your point about puberty stopping in 16/17 year old kids. 

You’re going off on a tangent.

My main argument is the general trope here is “just stay away from kids!”

I thought the consensus was once they turn 18 they are no longer a kid.  Do you agree?

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,880]

8 minutes ago, TimHauck said:

You’re going off on a tangent.

My main argument is the general trope here is “just stay away from kids!”

I thought the consensus was once they turn 18 they are no longer a kid.  Do you agree?

You're the one going off on a tangent.  I was rebutting your assertion that people are done growing by 16/17 years old, which is mostly false. 

You've gone off into the weeds with distractions from the main argument about puberty blockers.

[TimHauck 2,634]

16 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

You're the one going off on a tangent.  I was rebutting your assertion that people are done growing by 16/17 years old, which is mostly false. 

You've gone off into the weeds with distractions from the main argument about puberty blockers.

I said “mostly done.”  Cleveland Clinic agrees.

Once again, my main point is I thought most righties here drew the line for surgeries and puberty blockers at 18 (apparently you disagree).  And most others say 16 or 17.  So we’re basically arguing about 1-2 years here.

I said what I did about puberty blockers because if you set a minimum age (even if 16), I’m not sure if there’s much benefit since even if they still might grow a bit, the main features that make them look like a man or woman (boobs, Adam’s apple, etc.) are likely already there, so you’re not “blocking puberty,” you’re just blocking towards the end of it if it hasn’t already ended.  But if you want to allow 20 year olds to take puberty blockers, that’s fine by me…

[The Real timschochet 6,534]

1 hour ago, MDC said:

I’d be fine with banning puberty blockers too. They have known medical side effects and we don’t know what the long term mental health side effects are. And they’re almost certainly over prescribed. There probably are circumstances when they’re appropriate but I doubt that’s a matter of life or death for a kid who’s 12/13 vs. 16/17. Hormone therapy is an option after that. 

As I wrote yesterday I’m open to these arguments. But I’m also concerned about their source: I want our decisions on these issues to come from the advice of medical health experts, and not from religious moralists or people who think the whole thing is gross or perverted. And even though I acknowledge that hormone blockers and surgery could in some instances be harmful, and even though I am uncomfortable with prepubescents undergoing such treatment, I am just as uncomfortable with the government interfering with private decisions between doctors and patients. 

[GutterBoy 2,898]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

As I wrote yesterday I’m open to these arguments. But I’m also concerned about their source: I want our decisions on these issues to come from the advice of medical health experts, and not from religious moralists or people who think the whole thing is gross or perverted. And even though I acknowledge that hormone blockers and surgery could in some instances be harmful, and even though I am uncomfortable with prepubescents undergoing such treatment, I am just as uncomfortable with the government interfering with private decisions between doctors and patients. 

Exactly 

[MDC 7,171]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

As I wrote yesterday I’m open to these arguments. But I’m also concerned about their source: I want our decisions on these issues to come from the advice of medical health experts, and not from religious moralists or people who think the whole thing is gross or perverted. And even though I acknowledge that hormone blockers and surgery could in some instances be harmful, and even though I am uncomfortable with prepubescents undergoing such treatment, I am just as uncomfortable with the government interfering with private decisions between doctors and patients. 

There isn’t enough data on the long term effects of using puberty blockers on physical or mental health. So medical professionals are flying sort of blind on this one too.

I also suspect puberty blockers are overprescribed based on the high % of kids who “grow out” of being trans: Link. If more than half of trans kids grow out of it, what’s the urgency to introducing puberty blockers at 12/13 versus 15/17? 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,001]

12 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

As I wrote yesterday I’m open to these arguments. But I’m also concerned about their source: I want our decisions on these issues to come from the advice of medical health experts, and not from religious moralists or people who think the whole thing is gross or perverted. And even though I acknowledge that hormone blockers and surgery could in some instances be harmful, and even though I am uncomfortable with prepubescents undergoing such treatment, I am just as uncomfortable with the government interfering with private decisions between doctors and patients. 

And, no mention of parents. 

[Strike 5,276]

When I was diagnosed with Diverticulitis a few years ago I was prescribed an antibiotic regimen to combat it.  I was able to google this particular ailment and find out that what I had been prescribed was a standard treatment for the form of diverticulitis I was diagnosed with.  That's what happens with medicine.  Unfortunately, there is no such standard program when it comes to this stuff.  Doctors are making it up as they go along and using confused kids as guinea pigs in their experiments.  That's not how science works and anyone suggesting that the treatments being given to kids is based on science is full of poop.  In the next couple of decades we're going to find out that "holy sh*t, what the fock were we doing to those kids" as we learn more about this ailment, how to diagnose it, the differences between kids and adults who experience it, and what the best treatments are for the various forms of it. 

[The Real timschochet 6,534]

7 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

And, no mention of parents. 

I’m not ambivalent about the role of parents. But it depends on the circumstances. What if the parents are abusive? What if they believe the whole thing is gross and perverted, or if they attempt to prohibit it based on religious beliefs? 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,001]

Just now, The Real timschochet said:

I’m not ambivalent about the role of parents. But it depends on the circumstances. What if the parents are abusive? What if they believe the whole thing is gross and perverted, or if they attempt to prohibit it based on religious beliefs? 

If the parents are abusive then they should be held accountable for being abusive. Regardless of the reason. So non-sequitur. We are at a place where liberals think that they should decide what’s best for someone else’s kid. 

[League Champion 1,896]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

Unfortunately, there is no such standard program when it comes to this stuff.  Doctors are making it up as they go along and using confused kids as guinea pigs in their experiments.  That's not how science works and anyone suggesting that the treatments being given to kids is based on science is full of poop. 

Great analysis. People love to to hide behind the guise of science, but isn't science very clear in the fact that a Boy is a Boy and a Girl is a Girl? I could be wrong but I don't remember reading about Girls with D's in science class. 

Now ask those same people about the science behind COVID. I guess it works when it's convenient. 

[The Real timschochet 6,534]

2 minutes ago, Strike said:

Doctors are making it up as they go along and using confused kids as guinea pigs in their experiments. 

I don’t believe this is true and I don’t think you have any evidence that it is beyond certain anecdotes that are hotly denied. 
 

And just as you googled diverticulitis, I can Google “Gender Affirming Treatment” and get all sorts of information from various medical websites with details about treatment, risks, etc. So I’m not seeing any difference. 

[Strike 5,276]

3 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I don’t believe this is true and I don’t think you have any evidence that it is beyond certain anecdotes that are hotly denied. 
 

And just as you googled diverticulitis, I can Google “Gender Affirming Treatment” and get all sorts of information from various medical websites with details about treatment, risks, etc. So I’m not seeing any difference. 

Bullsh*t.  No one denies that you can get hormone blockers with minimal care from a mental health professional.  And there are tons of them who are big alphabet supporters and just sign off on those documents.  That's NOT a peer reviewed, standardized, scientific regimen. 

[GutterBoy 2,898]

8 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

. We are at a place where liberals think that they should decide what’s best for someone else’s kid. 

Republicans want to do the same thing.

[The Real timschochet 6,534]

5 minutes ago, Strike said:

Bullsh*t.  No one denies that you can get hormone blockers with minimal care from a mental health professional.  And there are tons of them who are big alphabet supporters and just sign off on those documents.  That's NOT a peer reviewed, standardized, scientific regimen. 

You’re making a lot of assertions here without evidence. I don’t believe you. 

[jerryskids 6,597]

32 minutes ago, MDC said:

There isn’t enough data on the long term effects of using puberty blockers on physical or mental health. So medical professionals are flying sort of blind on this one too.

I also suspect puberty blockers are overprescribed based on the high % of kids who “grow out” of being trans: Link. If more than half of trans kids grow out of it, what’s the urgency to introducing puberty blockers at 12/13 versus 15/17? 

I appreciate the info.  What one calls "grow out" another might call "never really were and just were confused like a whole lotta kids going through hormonal changes and societal pressures."   

[Hardcore troubadour 15,001]

11 minutes ago, GutterBoy said:

Republicans want to do the same thing.

Really? You’re going to compare academic curriculums, that have been debated since the Greeks, to getting between parents and a child about gender issues? And surgery and drugs? You idiot. 

[GutterBoy 2,898]

3 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Really? You’re going to compare academic curriculums, that have been debated since the Greeks, to getting between parents and a child about gender issues? And surgery and drugs? You idiot. 

You want the govt to ban surgery and drugs based on your beliefs.  Republicans want to decide what to do with other people's kids.  Get it?

[BuckSwope 654]

38 minutes ago, MDC said:

There isn’t enough data on the long term effects of using puberty blockers on physical or mental health. So medical professionals are flying sort of blind on this one too.

I also suspect puberty blockers are overprescribed based on the high % of kids who “grow out” of being trans: Link. If more than half of trans kids grow out of it, what’s the urgency to introducing puberty blockers at 12/13 versus 15/17? 

Not saying I agree with it, but the "urgency" is to block puberty before it starts.    The meds are mostly pointless if you start them at 16, no? 

The reasoning I have seen to have them available is because of that and to make surgeries less necessary in the future, which statistically is also more dangerous than the blockers.