Trans Kids

[KSB2424 3,148]

Leave the kids alone is all.  Let them go through puberty and figure it out.  Gah.  

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

55 minutes ago, KSB2424 said:

Leave the kids alone is all.  Let them go through puberty and figure it out.  Gah.  

Agreed. And if they figure out during puberty or before  that they were born the wrong sex, leave them alone to do fix it with their doctor. 

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

57 minutes ago, Drizzay said:

Why the fock do we need 38 pages to say 'women can't transform into men' and 'men can't transform into women'?  They can pretend to want to be the opposite, and no one cares about it.  But the facts about their biology do not change.

Except that they can. Men can change into women and vice versa. Modern surgery allows it. The facts do change, even if you refuse to accept it. 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,133]

8 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

Except that they can. Men can change into women and vice versa. Modern surgery allows it. The facts do change, even if you refuse to accept it. 

Negative. Sorry but your ill-informed propaganda does not change reality.

Women cannot become men and men cannot become women. This is fact and this is not debatable.

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

4 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Negative. Sorry but your ill-informed propaganda does not change reality.

Women cannot become men and men cannot become women. This is fact and this is not debatable.

It is debatable because we’re debating it. And we’re not the only ones. The vast majority of medical doctors side with me. 

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

6 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Women cannot become men and men cannot become women. This is fact and this is not debatable.

Here for example is the University of Michigan Health Department disagreeing with you: 

https://www.uofmhealth.org/conditions-treatments/transgender-services/gender-confirmation-surgery

So whom should I believe? A few conservatives on the internet or the top doctors in the country? Seems like I asked this same question during Covid. Seems like I asked a similar question, with regard to scientists, during the climate change debate. 
 

Are we seeing a pattern here? Modern day conservatives reject any and all science and facts that don’t fit their point of view. In this particular case their point of view is that sex changes are disgusting, so they don’t accept the medical facts. 

[avoiding injuries 1,595]

I’ll agree with Tim when we can start changing chromosomes and dna. Until then it’s make believe and physical attributes. 

[RLLD 4,254]

53 minutes ago, avoiding injuries said:

I’ll agree with Tim when we can start changing chromosomes and dna. Until then it’s make believe and physical attributes. 

Correct. When you hear the words "I identify as..." what you are really hearing is "I pretend to be..."

And its mostly harmless, I think these folks could probably use some counseling to help them with the underlying issues they have which are manifesting in this behavior.... but you cant force them to get the help.

As long as they stay away from kids, that is all I really ask....

[Hardcore troubadour 15,510]

Chopping body parts off of kids. Yup, that’s where liberals have us now. 

[Engorgeous George 2,331]

8 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

It is debatable because we’re debating it. And we’re not the only ones. The vast majority of medical doctors side with me. 

What if he had ended his post with "Full Stop"?  Would it have then been undebatable?

 

I wonder.  What if the some universal evil enslaved a race and sought to eliminate them.  That universal evil decided the way to do so would be to chemically and hormonally castrate them.  Then that universal evil decided to remove their genatalia and secondary sexual organs and then attach to them a mockery of the genatalia of the opposite sex.  Would we consider the procedures an operation or a mutaliation?  Would we consider those individuals to be members of their assigned and changed external appearance?  I doubt it.

 

Now I appreciate that force is different than choice for how the individual percieves themselves if they arrive at this end, but the end result, is the end result a man or a woman, or some mockery of the real thing. sometimes a cruel mockery, sometimes a sincere attempt to duplicate the real thing, but a mocjkery nonetheless?

 

In the end I don't seek to impose a view on another whose reality I cannot experience.  If a person is in pain I hope for them a route out of their emotional termoil.  I hope they have the wisdom to choose a true route out of their pain.  I understand there may be false, deadend paths that may lead them to further pain.  I understand those paths may be touted by the well intentioned, but it is not they who walk that path, it is the person in emotional turmoil, and they walk alone.  Some will say they walk with them, to support them, but they walk alone, if spectated on their walk.

 

[EternalShinyAndChrome 4,133]

7 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Here for example is the University of Michigan Health Department disagreeing with you: 

https://www.uofmhealth.org/conditions-treatments/transgender-services/gender-confirmation-surgery

So whom should I believe? A few conservatives on the internet or the top doctors in the country? Seems like I asked this same question during Covid. Seems like I asked a similar question, with regard to scientists, during the climate change debate. 
 

Are we seeing a pattern here? Modern day conservatives reject any and all science and facts that don’t fit their point of view. In this particular case their point of view is that sex changes are disgusting, so they don’t accept the medical facts. 

That's not science and the fact that you think it is says a whole helluva lot about you.  You're the perfect Democrat - unthinking and ready to regurgitate the latest Propaganda Du Jour that your masters at the DNC tell you to.  To be clear, YOU'RE the one rejecting the science.  It's almost as if you believe Biology doesn't exist in your zealous quest to gain as many virtues as possible.

Also, to be clear, your quest for virtues helps no one, especially the people you claim you want to help.  You're doing it for YOU, not for THEM - but that's SOP for today's left (aKa The New Bolsheviks).

As @avoiding injuries said, the day you can change DNA and chromosomes is when we'll start looking at you seriously.

[KSB2424 3,148]

38 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Chopping body parts off of kids. Yup, that’s where liberals have us now. 

Unbelievable.  Sick Focks. 

[Engorgeous George 2,331]

Transitioning surgery.  Is it ability oustripping wisdom, or wisdom applied?  I don't know.  I am confident, however, that those who have not gone through the procedure and then lived their lives to conclusion have any idea.  Believing that second hand accounts before the journey is concluded are accurate accounts and provide direct and reliable knowledge of the entirety of the journey is the height of ignorance.  Some here tout the view from the heights failing to appreciate the height is the height of ignorance. 

[jerryskids 6,836]

10 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Once again, the statistics clearly show that 99% of those who get this operation have no regrets and that includes teenagers. So what makes you think we should stop it? 

Sorry for the late response but I signed off for the evening.

I was initially surprised by your statistics until I thought about them some more.  One, until very recently, the system worked as it should.  Very few people are trans, those who were trans needed to really show to themselves and others that they were, and we accommodated them.  It is not until the last few years that it has become en vogue to be on the spectrum, and with it the lure to confused pubescent teens to change from dork to cool (spectrum) kid.  Now, you allege, >20% of our latest generation is on the spectrum and it is growing at a geometric rate.

Two, and I've said this numerous times here, the surgeries are a bit of a red herring.  While I'm confident there has been an increase in recent years, it has likely gone from very very rare to very rare.  By far the more significant concern to me are hormones and puberty blockers.  We've litigated this here numerous times but you cannot stop or reverse puberty for a period, turn it back on, and experience no negative effects.  Somebody here posted a link to an article attempting to claim as much, but I showed that both the article and its references carefully use words like "resume" and "continue" in describing post-therapy outcomes.  You cannot make up for lost time, so organs/bones/brain/chemistry will be maldeveloped.  This is science.

Let's retake your polls in a few years, and include hormone therapies, and see where we are.

[Reality 3,121]

51 minutes ago, KSB2424 said:

Unbelievable.  Sick Focks. 

Seriously, how did we get here?

Sick focks is exactly right. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,510]

7 minutes ago, Reality said:

Seriously, how did we get here?

Sick focks is exactly right. 

They went from abortions being safe and rare and early in the pregnancy to letting babies die after  they are born. You have to ask, at what point do they abandon their political ideology and say that’s too far? 

[Strike 5,590]

25 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Sorry for the late response but I signed off for the evening.

I was initially surprised by your statistics until I thought about them some more.

 

Jerry,

  I have no idea where Tim's supposed statistics are from.  Did he post a link or something?  I loooked at one link he posted and it had nothing to do with what he said it did.  @Voltaire made the mistake of taking Tim's link at face value without exploring it.  In any case, if you haven't actually looked at whatever source he's using for his statements I would highly recommend that you do.  He's likely at best being misleading, such as pointing to a 10 year old study of 30 year olds who get their penised chopped off instead of anything to do with kids, or at worst linking to something completely unrelated as he did yesterday afternoon.

[Mike Hunt 283]

9 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

Agreed. And if they figure out during puberty or before  that they were born the wrong sex, leave them alone to do fix it with their doctor. 

 

NCAA female swimmers said the tranny swimmer was walking around the locker with his and balls hanging out.  Then goes out and swims and wins a meet against real female swimmers. Something is seriously wrong when we allow that.  

[jerryskids 6,836]

43 minutes ago, Strike said:

Jerry,

  I have no idea where Tim's supposed statistics are from.  Did he post a link or something?  I loooked at one link he posted and it had nothing to do with what he said it did.  @Voltaire made the mistake of taking Tim's link at face value without exploring it.  In any case, if you haven't actually looked at whatever source he's using for his statements I would highly recommend that you do.  He's likely at best being misleading, such as pointing to a 10 year old study of 30 year olds who get their penised chopped off instead of anything to do with kids, or at worst linking to something completely unrelated as he did yesterday afternoon.

Here is the link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

The study is from 2021, but it is a meta study and I didn't dig into the underlying studies or their dates.  While I raise a large eyebrow at the 1% conclusion I do not have the time or interest to dig into each underlying study, so I chose instead to respond with what I feel I could confidently state in response.   

[Strike 5,590]

19 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Here is the link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8099405/

The study is from 2021, but it is a meta study and I didn't dig into the underlying studies or their dates.  While I raise a large eyebrow at the 1% conclusion I do not have the time or interest to dig into each underlying study, so I chose instead to respond with what I feel I could confidently state in response.   

Thanks for the link.  Without going in to the legitimacy of the claims of the link, there is a table with the mean ages for all of the studies.   For some studies this data wasn't included for whatever reason but for a lot of them it was.  There were one or two studies where the mean age was 22-25, but most of them were people in their 30's or older.  IOW, this doesn't have anything to do with the discussion in this thread, which is about children.  I don't think there is one person in this thread who has expressed an opinion of being opposed to 30 year olds having trans surgery.  Some may think those people are freaks but they don't care what adults choose to do to their bodies.  The problem comes when you start doing these things to young children.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Don't take anything TimsCrotch says at face value.  Double check everything very carefully. 

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

1 hour ago, jerryskids said:

Sorry for the late response but I signed off for the evening.

I was initially surprised by your statistics until I thought about them some more.  One, until very recently, the system worked as it should.  Very few people are trans, those who were trans needed to really show to themselves and others that they were, and we accommodated them.  It is not until the last few years that it has become en vogue to be on the spectrum, and with it the lure to confused pubescent teens to change from dork to cool (spectrum) kid.  Now, you allege, >20% of our latest generation is on the spectrum and it is growing at a geometric rate.

Two, and I've said this numerous times here, the surgeries are a bit of a red herring.  While I'm confident there has been an increase in recent years, it has likely gone from very very rare to very rare.  By far the more significant concern to me are hormones and puberty blockers.  We've litigated this here numerous times but you cannot stop or reverse puberty for a period, turn it back on, and experience no negative effects.  Somebody here posted a link to an article attempting to claim as much, but I showed that both the article and its references carefully use words like "resume" and "continue" in describing post-therapy outcomes.  You cannot make up for lost time, so organs/bones/brain/chemistry will be maldeveloped.  This is science.

Let's retake your polls in a few years, and include hormone therapies, and see where we are.

Hey Jerry, first off I want to compliment you on the thoughtfulness of your post, so different from the “it’s sick and disgusting!” responses I have been receiving. 

We agree that these surgeries are very rare, but I think the use of hormone blockers are less rare but still extremely rare as well. They’re certainly not “en vogue”. Im going to see if I can find some data to back that up. In any case I don’t see why there would be any difference in terms of regret between the two (if regret was an issue at all, logic suggests that the surgery would be a bigger source for it since it’s more permanent). 
 

I also don’t understand why a few years would change these numbers, other than to make the 1% even smaller as medical advances make these procedures more safe and less onerous. 

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

Just now, Strike said:

Thanks for the link.  Without going in to the legitimacy of the claims of the link, there is a table with the mean ages for all of the studies.   For some studies this didn't wasn't included for whatever reason but for a lot of them it was.  There were one or two studies where the mean age was 22-25, but most of them were people in their 30's or older.  IOW, this doesn't have anything to do with the discussion in this thread, which is about children.  I don't think there is one person in this thread who has expressed an opinion of being opposed to 30 year olds having trans surgery.  Some may think those people are freaks but they don't care what adults choose to do to their bodies.  The problem comes when you start doing these things to young children.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Don't take anything TimsCrotch says at face value.  Double check everything very carefully. 

There is no evidence whatsoever that those under 18 feel any different about trans surgery or hormone blockers than those over 18. Your distinction, in terms of regret or changing one’s mind, between ages is irrelevant. It doesn’t exist. 

[Strike 5,590]

2 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

There is no evidence whatsoever that those under 18 feel any different about trans surgery or hormone blockers than those over 18. Your distinction, in terms of regret or changing one’s mind, between ages is irrelevant. It doesn’t exist. 

You forgot to add "FULL STOP!!!"

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

You forgot to add "FULL STOP!!!"

No I forgot to add this: 

https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(18)30057-2/fulltext

It’s another, earlier study from the Netherlands, this one including patients under the age of 18 (it may even be primarily under 18 since it includes all patients of the clinic, but those percentages aren’t reported in the summary.) 

The results are the same: less than 1% regret the surgery or treatment. Age makes no difference. 
 

You’ll need to come up with another argument. 

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

There is another factor to consider when we discuss withholding these treatments from teenagers: without this surgery or hormone treatments, many of these kids are going to sink into deep depression. Some of them will commit suicide. These are facts based on several studies: here is an article from Scientific American that discusses these facts in some detail and the disastrous effects when states, mostly with conservative governors, attempt to make these processes illegal for minors: 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-science-on-gender-affirming-care-for-transgender-kids-really-shows/?amp=true

Many of you claim to care about these children. I don’t doubt that’s the case. But if you do, then help them get the care they need. Don’t restrict it. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,510]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

There is another factor to consider when we discuss withholding these treatments from teenagers: without this surgery or hormone treatments, many of these kids are going to sink into deep depression. Some of them will commit suicide. These are facts based on several studies: here is an article from Scientific American that discusses these facts in some detail and the disastrous effects when states, mostly with conservative governors, attempt to make these processes illegal for minors: 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-science-on-gender-affirming-care-for-transgender-kids-really-shows/?amp=true

Many of you claim to care about these children. I don’t doubt that’s the case. But if you do, then help them get the care they need. Don’t restrict it. 

Wait a second, don’t they have to go though a psych evaluation before transition? 

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

3 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Wait a second, don’t they have to go though a psych evaluation before transition? 

I would think so sure. How does this fact contradict the studies? 

[jerryskids 6,836]

1 hour ago, Strike said:

Thanks for the link.  Without going in to the legitimacy of the claims of the link, there is a table with the mean ages for all of the studies.   For some studies this data wasn't included for whatever reason but for a lot of them it was.  There were one or two studies where the mean age was 22-25, but most of them were people in their 30's or older.  IOW, this doesn't have anything to do with the discussion in this thread, which is about children.  I don't think there is one person in this thread who has expressed an opinion of being opposed to 30 year olds having trans surgery.  Some may think those people are freaks but they don't care what adults choose to do to their bodies.  The problem comes when you start doing these things to young children.

I've said it before and I'll say it again.  Don't take anything TimsCrotch says at face value.  Double check everything very carefully. 

The study did claim to look at ages 13 and older, and in the table it seemed a few had data for minors.

54 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

No I forgot to add this: 

https://www.jsm.jsexmed.org/article/S1743-6095(18)30057-2/fulltext

It’s another, earlier study from the Netherlands, this one including patients under the age of 18 (it may even be primarily under 18 since it includes all patients of the clinic, but those percentages aren’t reported in the summary.) 

The results are the same: less than 1% regret the surgery or treatment. Age makes no difference. 
 

You’ll need to come up with another argument. 

I think this is one of them, I remember seeing the Netherlands.  If you read this link, you will see it is a summary with no data, and says absolutely zero about the age of the participants.  So I'm not clear on how one could draw any conclusions about minors from this study.

 

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

Hey Jerry, first off I want to compliment you on the thoughtfulness of your post, so different from the “it’s sick and disgusting!” responses I have been receiving. 

We agree that these surgeries are very rare, but I think the use of hormone blockers are less rare but still extremely rare as well. They’re certainly not “en vogue”. Im going to see if I can find some data to back that up. In any case I don’t see why there would be any difference in terms of regret between the two (if regret was an issue at all, logic suggests that the surgery would be a bigger source for it since it’s more permanent). 
 

I also don’t understand why a few years would change these numbers, other than to make the 1% even smaller as medical advances make these procedures more safe and less onerous. 

And the study is 5 years old, and remember, for those who could have had the surgery long enough to comment on remorse (which I haven't seen how they determine an appropriate time), their therapy was likely much earlier, long before it became chic to be on the spectrum.

The reason a few years matters is in the words I've been typing: it is now en vogue.  It is a simple concept; you may disagree but you are being obtuse if you say you don't understand.  

Please confirm that you disagree that it is popular to be on the spectrum for teens, and we can have that discussion.

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

2 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

The study did claim to look at ages 13 and older, and in the table it seemed a few had data for minors.

I think this is one of them, I remember seeing the Netherlands.  If you read this link, you will see it is a summary with no data, and says absolutely zero about the age of the participants.  So I'm not clear on how one could draw any conclusions about minors from this study.

 

And the study is 5 years old, and remember, for those who could have had the surgery long enough to comment on remorse (which I haven't seen how they determine an appropriate time), their therapy was likely much earlier, long before it became chic to be on the spectrum.

The reason a few years matters is in the words I've been typing: it is now en vogue.  It is a simple concept; you may disagree but you are being obtuse if you say you don't understand.  

Please confirm that you disagree that it is popular to be on the spectrum for teens, and we can have that discussion.

I do disagree. It is certainly more acceptable for teenagers to reveal that they need gender affirming treatment, which has increased the numbers of those willing to reveal it. But it doesn’t change any of the actual numbers; they were there all along. It’s just that now, thankfully, a few more kids are willing to be honest about it. Though one read through this thread should tell you that we as a society still have a long way to go in terms of acceptance. 
 

But the words you use like “en vogue” and “popular”- that’s a fantasy. None of that is happening. You appear to be hung up on the notion that this is something that a kid can be talked into, that it’s a trend. I suppose this is a little better than calling them mentally ill, but it’s still flawed; you refuse to accept the reality that these kids were born in the wrong bodies and that this surgery or treatment helps them be who they really are inside. And that it’s good and healthy for them, which is why they don’t regret it. 

[Hardcore troubadour 15,510]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

I would think so sure. How does this fact contradict the studies? 

Well, I don’t think the cure for depression is surgery, do you? So I would think that the issue of depression and suicide should be dealt with first. Also, what about the kids that can’t get the surgery that have depression and suicidal thoughts? Are they SOL, because they can’t be operated on, or is the depression treated still? 

[jerryskids 6,836]

4 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

I do disagree. It is certainly more acceptable for teenagers to reveal that they need gender affirming treatment, which has increased the numbers of those willing to reveal it. But it doesn’t change any of the actual numbers; they were there all along. It’s just that now, thankfully, a few more kids are willing to be honest about it. Though one read through this thread should tell you that we as a society still have a long way to go in terms of acceptance. 
 

But the words you use like “en vogue” and “popular”- that’s a fantasy. None of that is happening. You appear to be hung up on the notion that this is something that a kid can be talked into, that it’s a trend. I suppose this is a little better than calling them mentally ill, but it’s still flawed; you refuse to accept the reality that these kids were born in the wrong bodies and that this surgery or treatment helps them be who they really are inside. And that it’s good and healthy for them, which is why they don’t regret it. 

Again with the absolutes.  It absolutely is happening, as is what you describe that it is more acceptable to admit.  The question is what the ratio is.  I maintain that the bulk of the increase is due to it being en vogue.

Your Netherlands study claims that trans men and women are in the 1:3800 and 1:5200 ratios.  Do you think that is the case for our teens these days?  In a large high school of 5000 kids, you think there are one or two kids total who identify as trans?  Maybe ask your daughters to ask their friends who are still in HS to get an estimate.  

[Beaker15 242]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

There is another factor to consider when we discuss withholding these treatments from teenagers: without this surgery or hormone treatments, many of these kids are going to sink into deep depression. Some of them will commit suicide. These are facts based on several studies: here is an article from Scientific American that discusses these facts in some detail and the disastrous effects when states, mostly with conservative governors, attempt to make these processes illegal for minors: 

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/what-the-science-on-gender-affirming-care-for-transgender-kids-really-shows/?amp=true

Many of you claim to care about these children. I don’t doubt that’s the case. But if you do, then help them get the care they need. Don’t restrict it. 

These kids are mentally ill and need help.  I agree with you on that point.  Get them treatment so they don't multilate their body.

[Engorgeous George 2,331]

And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if your genitalia confuses thee ....

 

BTW, I am an apostate, a heretic.  My hijacking of Matthew is not to represent the position of the faithful.  It is a troll.

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

23 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Well, I don’t think the cure for depression is surgery, do you? So I would think that the issue of depression and suicide should be dealt with first. Also, what about the kids that can’t get the surgery that have depression and suicidal thoughts? Are they SOL, because they can’t be operated on, or is the depression treated still? 

They don’t start out with depression. The depression comes if they DON’T get the surgery. 

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

17 minutes ago, Beaker15 said:

These kids are mentally ill and need help.  I agree with you on that point.  Get them treatment so they don't multilate their body.

They become mentally ill when they’re prevented from having the surgery. 

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

19 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Again with the absolutes.  It absolutely is happening, as is what you describe that it is more acceptable to admit.  The question is what the ratio is.  I maintain that the bulk of the increase is due to it being en vogue.

Your Netherlands study claims that trans men and women are in the 1:3800 and 1:5200 ratios.  Do you think that is the case for our teens these days?  In a large high school of 5000 kids, you think there are one or two kids total who identify as trans?  Maybe ask your daughters to ask their friends who are still in HS to get an estimate.  

The reason I use absolutes is because the statistics are so overwhelming that it would be irrelevant not to. It’s very much like voter fraud: last I checked the percentage of actual vote fraud in this country was something like 0.0001%. That’s not zero but it’s low enough for me to state with absolute assurance that it doesn’t happen: 

Im not going to ask my daughters how many kids they know are trans because that would be an anecdote and as useless as all anecdotes are. Somewhere there are probably actual numbers about this from a statistical study that we can all rely on. 

[squistion 2,226]

18 minutes ago, Beaker15 said:

These kids are mentally ill and need help.  I agree with you on that point.  Get them treatment so they don't multilate their body.

I am old to enough to remember when people said that about gay men and lesbians, although that is distinct minority viewpoint today (but some here may still believe that). 

[The Real timschochet 6,844]

1 minute ago, squistion said:

I am old to enough to remember when people said that about gay men and lesbians, although that is distinct minority viewpoint today (but some here may still believe that). 

It’s long been a tradition in this country, mostly among conservatives, to describe anyone with different thoughts or desires than the majority as mentally ill. 

[Beaker15 242]

24 minutes ago, squistion said:

I am old to enough to remember when people said that about gay men and lesbians, although that is distinct minority viewpoint today (but some here may still believe that). 

Gay men and lesbians are 100% mentally ill.  I have nothing against them but they need help as well.

[Beaker15 242]

30 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

They become mentally ill when they’re prevented from having the surgery. 

False.