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Is a Defense just as important as a player?

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#1 TennisMenace

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 12:21 PM

Do you guys value a good defense EQUALLY to a positional player? When I say good defense, I mean a top 2-5 defense. Here are two scenarios:

1.when you are making your waiver selection and you have your chance to get either a top defense who happens to be available, or a rising top positional player, do you give them equal weight? Assume you are weak at both positions. In other words, if the positional player is a RB, you are weak at RB. If the positional player is a WR, you are weak at WR. And of course, you are weak at your Defense. Do you treat them equally, or do you believe the positional player should be given a higher preference?

2. When making a trade, would you trade a solid positional player IN ORDER to pick up a GOOD DEFENSE? For example, you own two QBs, and you are willing to trade one (say Fitzpatrick) in order to get Jax Defense. Or, you have 4 good WRs and are willing to trade one of them, say Marvin Jones in order to pick up Bears Defense.

Thoughts?
2018 .5 PPR, 10 team. Flex:w/r/t

3-3
QB: MRyan, JWinston
RB: MMack, JWhite, CThompson, NChubb, MBreida, and The Duke
WR: OBJ, Hopkins, Golladay, TQ Smith
TE: Ertz
D: Chiefs (stream)
K: Zuerlien

#2 tanatastic

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 12:44 PM

Usually not but there are a couple impact dst every year. Bears could be one of them.

#3 seafoam1

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 12:51 PM

I do.

#4 bobjay00

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 01:41 PM

I think it is tougher to do in a ppr league, but I would consider it in a standard league.


The Outlaws (3-3)

PPR .5 WRs & 1pt TEs & RBs (12 tm)

 

QB - Stafford, Beathard

RB - Gurley, Mixon, Coleman, M.Brown, Foreman

WR - DAdams, KGolladay, JBrown, CGodwin, Benjamin, Richardson

TE - Uzomah

PK - Rosas

DEE -Vikings, Patriots

GO EAGLES  :first:


#5 TheUsualSuspect

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 01:47 PM

All depends on league settings..

Standard, no.
But in another league Im in, points are earned for 3 and outs, return yardage, bonus points for yards and PA
"I don't want your money... I want your bookie's money." -Walter Abrams

#6 ramz04

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 01:52 PM

Usually not but there are a couple impact dst every year. Bears could be one of them.


Ditto on the bears

They are available in one of my leagues where my roster is absolutely stacked except I dont have a dominant defense. Im using my #6 claim on them.

#7 Law

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 01:58 PM

No. Because each week, there are perceived "top defenses" that don't do anything.

Case in point for week 2, Baltimore.

 

It's nice to have a good defense with a late bye that you can just ride for awhile, but the reality is that most any defense can crap the bed in any given week.



#8 seafoam1

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 02:02 PM

No. Because each week, there are perceived "top defenses" that don't do anything.
Case in point for week 2, Baltimore.
 
It's nice to have a good defense with a late bye that you can just ride for awhile, but the reality is that most any defense can crap the bed in any given week.


Same for players.

#9 TennisMenace

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 02:46 PM

All depends on league settings..
Standard, no.
But in another league Im in, points are earned for 3 and outs, return yardage, bonus points for yards and PA


I’m glad I don’t play in your league....too many variables.
2018 .5 PPR, 10 team. Flex:w/r/t

3-3
QB: MRyan, JWinston
RB: MMack, JWhite, CThompson, NChubb, MBreida, and The Duke
WR: OBJ, Hopkins, Golladay, TQ Smith
TE: Ertz
D: Chiefs (stream)
K: Zuerlien

#10 TennisMenace

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 02:50 PM

No. Because each week, there are perceived "top defenses" that don't do anything.
Case in point for week 2, Baltimore.
 
It's nice to have a good defense with a late bye that you can just ride for awhile, but the reality is that most any defense can crap the bed in any given week.


So, I guess what I hear you saying is this.....even Jax or Minny will have to play against top offenses and you may want to avoid them during those games.

However, can’t you say the same about positional players? Do you play the same qb against every team? Do you play the same WRs against every defense, no matter what great CB they may be going against? So, aren’t they the same?
2018 .5 PPR, 10 team. Flex:w/r/t

3-3
QB: MRyan, JWinston
RB: MMack, JWhite, CThompson, NChubb, MBreida, and The Duke
WR: OBJ, Hopkins, Golladay, TQ Smith
TE: Ertz
D: Chiefs (stream)
K: Zuerlien

#11 brotherbock

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 03:04 PM

So, I guess what I hear you saying is this.....even Jax or Minny will have to play against top offenses and you may want to avoid them during those games.

However, can’t you say the same about positional players? Do you play the same qb against every team? Do you play the same WRs against every defense, no matter what great CB they may be going against? So, aren’t they the same?

 

I'd say they are too. I play top D's just like I play top players. I left Jax in against the Patriots this weekend. They got me 6.5 pts this week (15+ last week). But my opp has the Iggles, who scored..6.5 points this week :) I'm fine with that score, particularly when it leaves me with a spot I can use to sit on a flyer WR or RB. 

 

There's no such thing as a 'flyer DEF'. One-week streamers, sure, but imo grab a good D and run with them.



#12 weepaws

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 03:27 PM

Do you guys value a good defense EQUALLY to a positional player? When I say good defense, I mean a top 2-5 defense. Here are two scenarios:
1.when you are making your waiver selection and you have your chance to get either a top defense who happens to be available, or a rising top positional player, do you give them equal weight? Assume you are weak at both positions. In other words, if the positional player is a RB, you are weak at RB. If the positional player is a WR, you are weak at WR. And of course, you are weak at your Defense. Do you treat them equally, or do you believe the positional player should be given a higher preference?
2. When making a trade, would you trade a solid positional player IN ORDER to pick up a GOOD DEFENSE? For example, you own two QBs, and you are willing to trade one (say Fitzpatrick) in order to get Jax Defense. Or, you have 4 good WRs and are willing to trade one of them, say Marvin Jones in order to pick up Bears Defense.
Thoughts?


No
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#13 Mr Neil

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 03:45 PM

Anybody think the Browns D could be decent? As a Chargers D owner Im debating them

#14 TennisMenace

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 04:09 PM

No


I like this short and sweet answer, but I would like to hear you justify your no answer. Placate me weepaws.....lol
2018 .5 PPR, 10 team. Flex:w/r/t

3-3
QB: MRyan, JWinston
RB: MMack, JWhite, CThompson, NChubb, MBreida, and The Duke
WR: OBJ, Hopkins, Golladay, TQ Smith
TE: Ertz
D: Chiefs (stream)
K: Zuerlien

#15 TennisMenace

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 04:10 PM

Anybody think the Browns D could be decent? As a Chargers D owner Im debating them


I’m also a Chargers owner and I put in a claim for the Browns (but I am not cutting my Chargers). I expect when Bosa and the other suspended dude return, which I think could be week 4,they will be a top 5 defense. But for week 3......no thanks....
2018 .5 PPR, 10 team. Flex:w/r/t

3-3
QB: MRyan, JWinston
RB: MMack, JWhite, CThompson, NChubb, MBreida, and The Duke
WR: OBJ, Hopkins, Golladay, TQ Smith
TE: Ertz
D: Chiefs (stream)
K: Zuerlien

#16 TheUsualSuspect

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 04:15 PM

Anybody think the Browns D could be decent? As a Chargers D owner Im debating them


Short-Term..Yes, targeting in multiple leagues. Thurs night (vs NYJ) is the Browns night.

09/30 @ LAR
10/07 vs BAL

Then it gets tough... TB (???), PIT, KC, ATL
"I don't want your money... I want your bookie's money." -Walter Abrams

#17 Bier Meister

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 04:37 PM

depends on league scoring. I play  in some where it is pretty elevated, and others pretty devalued


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#18 Bills04

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 05:55 PM

I grabbed CHI DEF in week 1, and cut my TE2 B. Watson.

 

This week, I'm grabbing GB DEF "a week early" (for Wk 4, vs. BUF), and dropping SF RB A. Morris.  (I have Bell / Conner, A. Collins, ADP and P. Barber.)



#19 Byrdman5

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 06:24 PM

its not worth it. 

Jags number 1 D... 5 games last year they were not worth starting.

Ravens number 2 D.... 8 games not worth starting.

 

Stream away


12 Team .5PPR 1QB, 2RB, 2WR, Flex, TE, D, K 5 man bench

***Team as of week 5

QB - Mahomes

RB - Fournette, Howard, R.Freeman, S.Michel, Conner

WR - A. Cooper, Juju, Edelman, Ridley, Boyd

TE - Njoku

D - Texans

K - J. Elliot 

IR - Engram


#20 yanko

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 06:47 PM

its not worth it. 
Jags number 1 D... 5 games last year they were not worth starting.
Ravens number 2 D.... 8 games not worth starting.
 
Stream away


It really depends on the scoring, number of teams and roster spots. Streaming ain’t going to work if there aren’t decent defenses on waivers especially in leagues where others are trying to stream as well. Drafting the Jags, Rams or Vikings rather than drafting your 4th WR is going to make your life a lot easier. Unless of course you like having to spend waiver priority and research time each and every week on a defense. Granted in smaller leagues you’ll have more options each week but you’re still having to use waiver priority unless you’re wasting 2-3 roster spots on defenses.

#21 Super Cubs

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 07:01 PM

its not worth it. 
Jags number 1 D... 5 games last year they were not worth starting.
Ravens number 2 D.... 8 games not worth starting.
 
Stream away

 
Same could be said about most all players.  Russell Wilson finished #1 overall fantasy points in my league last year. He had what I would consider 5 bad games. Just like Jax def.

#22 TennisMenace

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 07:19 PM

its not worth it. 
Jags number 1 D... 5 games last year they were not worth starting.
Ravens number 2 D.... 8 games not worth starting.
 
Stream away


Wow, good research dude. Thanks....
2018 .5 PPR, 10 team. Flex:w/r/t

3-3
QB: MRyan, JWinston
RB: MMack, JWhite, CThompson, NChubb, MBreida, and The Duke
WR: OBJ, Hopkins, Golladay, TQ Smith
TE: Ertz
D: Chiefs (stream)
K: Zuerlien

#23 TennisMenace

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 07:22 PM

Same could be said about most all players.  Russell Wilson finished #1 overall fantasy points in my league last year. He had what I would consider 5 bad games. Just like Jax def.


Hold on....he had 354 points. Can you show us the five games you believe he was bad? Thanks.
2018 .5 PPR, 10 team. Flex:w/r/t

3-3
QB: MRyan, JWinston
RB: MMack, JWhite, CThompson, NChubb, MBreida, and The Duke
WR: OBJ, Hopkins, Golladay, TQ Smith
TE: Ertz
D: Chiefs (stream)
K: Zuerlien

#24 polecatt

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 07:25 PM

Just depends on the scoring system.

In one of my leagues the top defense is usually in the top 3 scorers overall and often the top overall.

Any given week a defense can score off the charts with a TD or two.

In that league you almost can't win without a top notch defense. If somebody gets the top D they hold onto them.

I got Jacksonville on waivers last season and it's a dynasty league. They were one of my 8 keepers.

 

In another one of my leagues the defense is on par with the kickers and almost never score much.

In that one it's not a huge deal to have a top notch D.

 

It just depends, points are points, it doesn't matter which position they come from.



#25 Super Cubs

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 07:31 PM

Hold on....he had 354 points. Can you show us the five games you believe he was bad? Thanks.

 

weeks 1, 2, 5, 15, 16



#26 Jedi Sensei

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 07:37 PM

Hold on....he had 354 points. Can you show us the five games you believe he was bad? Thanks.

 

You didn't ask me, but from his 2017 game log in a standard scoring FPS system:

Wk1 @GB 8fpts

Wk2 vsSF 16fpts

Wk5 @LAR 13fpts

Wk15 vsLAR 12fpts

Wk16 @DAL 17fpts

 

Those are at times serviceable stats, but he probably wasn't winning you games at that position in those weeks.



#27 Byrdman5

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 07:47 PM

It really depends on the scoring, number of teams and roster spots. Streaming ain’t going to work if there aren’t decent defenses on waivers especially in leagues where others are trying to stream as well. Drafting the Jags, Rams or Vikings rather than drafting your 4th WR is going to make your life a lot easier. Unless of course you like having to spend waiver priority and research time each and every week on a defense. Granted in smaller leagues you’ll have more options each week but you’re still having to use waiver priority unless you’re wasting 2-3 roster spots on defenses.

Team size and bench size does matter. I would take a top D in huge bench league and 14+ teams. Waivers I would stream in reset and FAAB leagues not rollover. But then again I'm fine taking the 2nd or 3rd option for the stream that week. sometimes the hot streaming pick backfire. 

 

 
Same could be said about most all players.  Russell Wilson finished #1 overall fantasy points in my league last year. He had what I would consider 5 bad games. Just like Jax def.

True, but in most leagues you are more likely to hold 2 QB's and play matchups, then to hold 2 defenses and do the same.  At least until playoffs...

But I value QB's just above defense and I think they are stream worthy. I've taken a top 5 QB once in all the years I've been playing and that was one of my worst years.

I thought the bears would be a top 3-4, but I didn't put a claim on them because I was not willing to hold 2 defenses week 5 and they have a bad playoff schedule.

 

To the OP.

1. If I'm weak at every position RB>TE>WR>QB>D>K 

2. I would trade Fitzmagic for Jags D, because I don't value QB's high plus I don't believe he can keep it up.

Also I probably wouldn't trade Marvin Jones for a defense. I think Marvin is a good backup WR to have in case something bad happens.


12 Team .5PPR 1QB, 2RB, 2WR, Flex, TE, D, K 5 man bench

***Team as of week 5

QB - Mahomes

RB - Fournette, Howard, R.Freeman, S.Michel, Conner

WR - A. Cooper, Juju, Edelman, Ridley, Boyd

TE - Njoku

D - Texans

K - J. Elliot 

IR - Engram


#28 TennisMenace

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:19 PM

weeks 1, 2, 5, 15, 16

Lol

8
16
13
12,
17

From my point of view only one week is BAD (8)
Two weeks are MEH. (12,13)
Two weeks are OKAY. (16,17)
2018 .5 PPR, 10 team. Flex:w/r/t

3-3
QB: MRyan, JWinston
RB: MMack, JWhite, CThompson, NChubb, MBreida, and The Duke
WR: OBJ, Hopkins, Golladay, TQ Smith
TE: Ertz
D: Chiefs (stream)
K: Zuerlien

#29 DaBeerz

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:26 PM

OP it depends on the league. 

 

My big money league, yes DST are highly valued. Some weeks they can post as many points as the starting QBs. I actually like this format because it's a viable strategy to use a DST as a keeper or 1st or 2nd round pick with the favourable scoring.

 

In another league, with standard scoring no, they're not nearly as valuable as a position player. I'm dumping my 2nd DST to grab Bernard. 



#30 TennisMenace

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Posted 18 September 2018 - 08:28 PM

You didn't ask me, but from his 2017 game log in a standard scoring FPS system:
Wk1 @GB 8fpts
Wk2 vsSF 16fpts
Wk5 @LAR 13fpts
Wk15 vsLAR 12fpts
Wk16 @DAL 17fpts
 
Those are at times serviceable stats, but he probably wasn't winning you games at that position in those weeks.


I agree with your comments and analysis. I don’t see how you could call anything under 15 BAD. Even 12 and 13 are acceptable.

250 yds (10 pts) with one td (4pts) and one interception (- 2 pts) = 12 points. Playing in a hard rain or against a great passing defense who is weak against the run can cause a lower score.
2018 .5 PPR, 10 team. Flex:w/r/t

3-3
QB: MRyan, JWinston
RB: MMack, JWhite, CThompson, NChubb, MBreida, and The Duke
WR: OBJ, Hopkins, Golladay, TQ Smith
TE: Ertz
D: Chiefs (stream)
K: Zuerlien

#31 SexyRexy

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 04:55 AM

I wouldn't say equally (it kind of depends on the wire that week and your team tbh), however they do generate points right? 

 

And OBV scoring is a huge factor. DST's scoring systems change big time league to league, so it really all depends on a league by league, team by team, wire by wire basis.



#32 shutdown

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 05:59 AM

We've modified the DST scoring to take away the value away from TD returns (generally fluke plays) and put more emphasis on points and yards allowed.  This creates a much wider spectrum of potential outcomes each with with some defenses scoring up to 30 points and some registering -12.  This makes holding 2 to play match-ups a necessity unless you have one of the elites (some teams will hold 3).  Also it's a 14-team league so there are only 5-6 sitting on waivers and those are pretty much useless.

 

But when I play in standard leagues I just typically pick one off the waivers each week based on match-up as they are fairly unpredictable when scoring is heavily impacted by TD returns. 

 

So, as stated before, it depends on your league and largely your scoring system. 



#33 brotherbock

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 11:14 AM

its not worth it. 

Jags number 1 D... 5 games last year they were not worth starting.

Ravens number 2 D.... 8 games not worth starting.

 

Stream away

 

What are the odds that in those 5 or 8 games, someone who decides to stream is going to hit with their D choice rather than miss?

 

I could play the Jags all year long, have 5 games that were 'not worth starting'. Or I could, what, stream defenses for all 16 games? How many 'not worth starting' games do I get there? Less than 5? I'm going to get 11 games out of streaming caliber defenses (i.e. the ones on waivers, i.e. not the best defenses) that are equal to what the Jags could give me, and I'm going to successfully stream a better D on each of those other weeks?

 

I'm skeptical of those odds. People talk about streaming quite often without ever talking about how successful they or anyone is at doing it. 



#34 shutdown

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 12:03 PM


 

I'm skeptical of those odds. People talk about streaming quite often without ever talking about how successful they or anyone is at doing it. 

 

Streaming is also dependent on league size and roster size.  In a 10 team league you can easily stream.  In a 12 teamer, it depends on roster size.  If the rosters are 16+ you may not see as many options week to week.  Any league above 12, I find it impossible to stream because you've only got the bottom 5-10 to choose from.



#35 brotherbock

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 12:04 PM

 

Streaming is also dependent on league size and roster size.  In a 10 team league you can easily stream.  In a 12 teamer, it depends on roster size.  If the rosters are 16+ you may not see as many options week to week.  Any league above 12, I find it impossible to stream because you've only got the bottom 5-10 to choose from.

 

Exactly. There may be an available team facing the Bills that week. But they've been a bottom-10 defense so far for a reason :)



#36 thePRO

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 12:16 PM

I like having a top 7 defense. They usually won't net you worse than 5. They can score up to 20+. They can be the difference between a win and a loss.


12 Team Standard                           14 Team PPR/Return Yards                          12 Team Standard/Return Yards

Wilson                                              Cousins, Mahomes                                       Rodgers             

Johnson, A. Jones                          Gurley, Breida, A. Jones                              Barkley, T. Cohen, Connor

Drake, Ingram, Murray                    Mckinnon, C. Thompson                              R. Freeman, Breida, K. Johnson

Green, C. Davis                               Allen, DJ Moore                                             M. Thomas, Lockett

Evans, Jeffery                                 Adams, Sanders                                            JuJu, Benjamin, P. Cooper

Hogan                                              Lockett                                                           Lockett

Walker                                              Njoku                                                             Burton

Eagles DST                                     Chargers DST                                                Jaguars DST

Vinatieri                                           Succop                                                           Crosby


#37 Byrdman5

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 02:15 PM

 

What are the odds that in those 5 or 8 games, someone who decides to stream is going to hit with their D choice rather than miss?

 

I could play the Jags all year long, have 5 games that were 'not worth starting'. Or I could, what, stream defenses for all 16 games? How many 'not worth starting' games do I get there? Less than 5? I'm going to get 11 games out of streaming caliber defenses (i.e. the ones on waivers, i.e. not the best defenses) that are equal to what the Jags could give me, and I'm going to successfully stream a better D on each of those other weeks?

 

I'm skeptical of those odds. People talk about streaming quite often without ever talking about how successful they or anyone is at doing it. 

Not saying u will do better streaming, but you're not  giving up depth at another position either


12 Team .5PPR 1QB, 2RB, 2WR, Flex, TE, D, K 5 man bench

***Team as of week 5

QB - Mahomes

RB - Fournette, Howard, R.Freeman, S.Michel, Conner

WR - A. Cooper, Juju, Edelman, Ridley, Boyd

TE - Njoku

D - Texans

K - J. Elliot 

IR - Engram


#38 Byrdman5

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 02:20 PM

Here is how I am doing streaming so far

 

1st league

 

Saints UG -7

Jets 8

 

2nd league

Panthers 12

Miami 13

 

Jacksonville

13

4


12 Team .5PPR 1QB, 2RB, 2WR, Flex, TE, D, K 5 man bench

***Team as of week 5

QB - Mahomes

RB - Fournette, Howard, R.Freeman, S.Michel, Conner

WR - A. Cooper, Juju, Edelman, Ridley, Boyd

TE - Njoku

D - Texans

K - J. Elliot 

IR - Engram


#39 Fearsome

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 02:26 PM

I have tried to improve my defense by offering either a QB2 (Goff), RB4 (Hyde) or a WR4 (M Jones) along with my current Pittsburgh defense.  Tried for Rams, Jags, Vikings and Broncos and received four no's in those 2-for-1 scenarios.  Defenses change games and my league has limited transactions (only 10 per season) so streaming is not an option.  I guess you can't have top 10 players at all eight starting spots  :doublethumbsup:


Fearsome - 5 Time Fantasy Football Champion - 2000, 2004, 2008, 2010, 2017
If you don't stand up you don't stand a chance..." Squonk Genesis 1976


#40 seafoam1

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Posted 19 September 2018 - 02:27 PM

I drafted Minnesota and am only looking to the waiver for their bye week. Set it and forget it. That for me it is better than some cheap player that may hit or miss depending on if some hopeful scenario plays out and the player produces if it does..





Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: Waiver claims