Which coach was more incompetent in Week 3?

[zftcg 84]

This is a tough call IMO. What Arians did at the end of that game -- deliberately taking a delay of game penalty so his kicker could have a longer attempt (which he subsequently missed) may be the single dumbest thing I have ever seen any coach do, ever.

On the other hand, if you're one of those people who favors sustained runs of incompetence, I submit to you Freddie Kitchens' fourth quarter, during which, with the Browns down one score, he:

• Failed to challenge an obvious DPI non-call that would have gotten his team an extra down
• Called a draw play on 4th and 9
• Got the ball back down 7 with 2:45 and all three timeouts, and horribly mismanaged the clock on the Browns final drive, to the point where before they ran their last play they had 33 seconds left and all three timeouts
• Then proceeded to use one of those timeouts before the final play, which ensured that if the Browns failed, they wouldn't be able to get the ball back.
• Upon reaching 1st and goal at the 4 (again, with all three timeouts) did not call a single run for Chubb or pass to OBJ. Instead, two of the four passes were to backup TEs
• Failed to call a QB draw even though the center of the field was wide open on two of those plays.

I'm sure you could probably explain away any one of those individual decisions (well, other than the 4th-and-9 draw). But taken as a whole, they suggest that Kitchens may be overmatched for the job that he's in. If I were a Browns fan I would be very, very nervous.

[jimaveli 119]

Give me Freddie.

All offseason, the comfortable optimism surrounding the Browns had me very afraid for the Browns. Baker still makes bad decisions with the football..mainly, he likes late throws that work in college but often lead to disaster in the NFL. The oline, on paper, looked notably worse. First time head coach. The schedule. The division in general. And yes, even I’ll concede, Landry and OBJ together again could go south. 

And duh, high expectations!? For the Browns!? They’ve been passable like 3 times in the last 20 years! C’mon folks! Let them cook for a bit and become a reasonably decent outfit!

[uwmalcolm 73]

Carroll. His offensive preference for running the ball and unimaginative play calling is freaking killing the hawks. I was at the game and a lot of saints fans who were probably depressed about drew brees’ thumb ruining their trip got a very generous gift from Carroll and the hawks today. 

[oldtimer 84]

7 hours ago, uwmalcolm said:

Carroll. His offensive preference for running the ball and unimaginative play calling is freaking killing the hawks. I was at the game and a lot of saints fans who were probably depressed about drew brees’ thumb ruining their trip got a very generous gift from Carroll and the hawks today. 

Yeah, because the Seahawks were one of the top teams in the NFL prior to Carrol arriving....  You should be thankful for what you have.  In St. Louis (when we had a team), we had 10 years of the worst team in the NFL and some of the worst Head Coaches.  I get it, they could do some different things on offense, but saying anything he does is "killing the hawks" makes me think you forgot how crappy that team was before his arrival. 

Kitchens had a horrible day of play calling.  No question he wins this award.  Arians at least still gave his Kicker a 34 yard field goal attempt which should have been a given.  Sorry, but that miss is on the Kicker, not the Coach.  It was only 34 yards, not 54.  Kitchens thought a draw on 4th and 9 was a good idea.  That was just dumb.  That last series where they had the ball on the Rams 4 was some of the overall worst play calling I've seen from a HC in eons.  It was just that bad.  I kept wondering why they didn't try a rollout and/or allow Baker to use his feet.  It makes me wonder if Kitchens is simply trying to run "safe" plays (which lead to interceptions - see end of game).  So many other things he could have done in that game, but didn't.  Then again, I'm at my desk in an office and he's actually making the calls on the sidelines, so it's easy for me to sit here and speculate.  My play calling may have been even worse. 

P.S. - In my largest dynasty league, I set the points record this weekend for a single game.  207.8 for the weekend.  Oh yeah, the guy I played had Kupp and the Rams defense and scored 208.6 for the weekend.  That interception at the end of the game was worth 2 points.  Had Cleveland scored just one more field goal during the game, in our scoring system, the Rams would have lost 3 more defensive points.  So, I'm a bit miffed at Kitchens right now.

[Bills04 46]

Wow, no Arians comments?  The team was up by 18 at the half, and WR1 M. Evans was unstoppable.  So, the whole second half the Bucs play ball-control / run the ball.  Mean while, the G-Men are being aggressive and catching up.  Was surprised at how little Godwin was used.  Why not use motion for Godwin / Evans and enable them to get free releases, versus being chucked in the second half?  Etc. 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,649]

2 minutes ago, Bills04 said:

Wow, no Arians comments?  The team was up by 18 at the half, and WR1 M. Evans was unstoppable.  So, the whole second half the Bucs play ball-control / run the ball.  Mean while, the G-Men are being aggressive and catching up.  Was surprised at how little Godwin was used.  Why not use motion for Godwin / Evans and enable them to get free releases, versus being chucked in the second half?  Etc. 

Arians is obviously afraid of his quarterback. That why he let off the gas. 

[zftcg 84]

26 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Arians is obviously afraid of his quarterback. That why he let off the gas. 

Maybe, but at least he has confidence in his kicker! 

[cavern 70]

i'm going to place a vote for Tomlin.  While i know he is not an option in the thread, and even though i wasn't able to get the Pittsburgh game....he's always a pretty big idiot so i feel like he was likely more incompetent than anyone else.

good thread, btw 

[zftcg 84]

Ahem.

Quote

The Browns ran 23 plays in their final 4 drives on Sunday. OBJ was targeted once during that time.

• Jarvis Landry (4)
• Nick Chubb (2)
• Damion Ratley (2)
• Odell Beckham Jr. (1)
• Ricky Seals-Jones (1)
• Demetrius Harris (1)

 

[rotisserieking 34]

You did forget Pete Carroll who went into halftime with 2 timeouts and the ball near the red zone.

But my vote it Freddie. 4th and 9 draw? Then 1st and goal with timeouts and you walk away with nothing?

[jgcrawfish 232]

2 hours ago, cavern said:

i'm going to place a vote for Tomlin.  While i know he is not an option in the thread, and even though i wasn't able to get the Pittsburgh game....he's always a pretty big idiot so i feel like he was likely more incompetent than anyone else.

good thread, btw 

I could be wrong, but isn't Tomlin on an 0-9 streak in his last nine games?  Shouldn't that be enough to win this award? 

[Frozenbeernuts 1,652]

Tomlin for pushing a banged up Conner. He didn't let Samuels touch the ball one time. What in the hell is he doing when Conner is obviously not producing much? 

Carrol for his BS run first mentality until its wayyyy too late. I have been talking about this problem for years. 

Kitchens, I want that dude as my OC calling plays, but not as the head coach. He is over matched unfortunately. The Browns didnt want to lose him this offseason, nor did they want to force him as the OC on a different head coach. So they rolled the dice. I liked the gamble, maybe he turns it around

[cavern 70]

2 hours ago, jgcrawfish said:

I could be wrong, but isn't Tomlin on an 0-9 streak in his last nine games?  Shouldn't that be enough to win this award? 

but he is ACCOUNTABLE!!!

(i'm so sick of his "buck stops here" in the pressers.  just go ahead and fire yourself then

[shutdown 40]

The Browns ran 23 plays in their final 4 drives on Sunday. OBJ was targeted once during that time.

• Jarvis Landry (4)
• Nick Chubb (2)
• Damion Ratley (2)
• Odell Beckham Jr. (1)
• Ricky Seals-Jones (1)
• Demetrius Harris (1)

 

This all assumes that the targets were Baker's primary read.  I'd argue a lot of these were checkdowns or scramble drill plays because the O-line can't block, thus the pass attempts are not downfield where Beckham operates.  There's no time to throw OBJ the ball because the line sucks and Baker now seems to have happy feet and looks to leave the pocket too quickly.  I'm not sure I can blame Kitchens for that.

[huskyhater75 242]

HAHA Browns should trade for Fitzpatrick, at least he'll stand in there and take an azz kicking to get it down the field-that's his calling card! Seriously, Kitchen's reluctance to use Chubb at end of game was so like something Rich Kotite would've done!

[The Bard 11]

Mike Vrabel takes the cake. Down 14-0 with 11 minutes left in the 3rd and goes for it on 4th and 8 instead of a chip shot FG.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

My vote is Arians just because Kitchens owned up to his mistakes in the post game presser. 

 

Arians doubled down!!!! Did you hear what he said? It was something like “yeah I wanted that delay of game, our kicker does better when he’s a little more backed up”

 

You've got to be kidding me.

[zftcg 84]

7 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

My vote is Arians just because Kitchens owned up to his mistakes in the post game presser. 

 

Arians doubled down!!!! Did you hear what he said? It was something like “yeah I wanted that delay of game, our kicker does better when he’s a little more backed up”

 

You've got to be kidding me.

Yeah, that's just bizarre. I almost wonder if someone else screwed up and he was falling on his sword to protect the guy.

[zftcg 84]

16 hours ago, The Bard said:

Mike Vrabel takes the cake. Down 14-0 with 11 minutes left in the 3rd and goes for it on 4th and 8 instead of a chip shot FG.

It was 4th and 6 from the Jax 11. I think going for it there was totally defensible. It was their first sustained drive of the entire game; you get that far down the field, nothing wrong with trying to maximize your points. The way Tenn was playing, and the hole they were already in, they weren't going to win the game by kicking FGs.

[Brutal Brutus 182]

21 hours ago, LoOnAtIk said:

My vote is Arians just because Kitchens owned up to his mistakes in the post game presser. 

 

Arians doubled down!!!! Did you hear what he said? It was something like “yeah I wanted that delay of game, our kicker does better when he’s a little more backed up”

 

You've got to be kidding me.

One thing I learned about Arians while he was here in Arizona is that he'll never admit to a mistake. He'll also protect his coaches and throw players under the bus. 

[AxeElf 787]

2 minutes ago, Brutal Brutus said:

One thing I learned about Arians while he was here in Arizona is that he'll never admit to a mistake. He'll also protect his coaches and throw players under the bus. 

He'll have a future in moderating at RotoWorld when he retires!

[JustinCharge 2,397]

Kitchens is having trouble dealing with teams with a very good pass rush.  If he faces such teams in the future, he is gonna have bring in an extra TE to block and run the ball a lot more.  Otherwise, Baker Mayfield might regress.  However, Kitchens also is the guy that was incredibly smart designing plays in 2018 to the point where other teams would steal his designs constantly.  That's why he got the head coaching job.  So to hire him as head coach and then strip him of play calling duties would be the stupidest reaction in the universe.  Also, the Ravens are struggling at generating a pass rush, so the Browns offense should put up 30 points next week.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

1 hour ago, riversco said:

Kitchens is having trouble dealing with teams with a very good pass rush.  If he faces such teams in the future, he is gonna have bring in an extra TE to block and run the ball a lot more.  Otherwise, Baker Mayfield might regress.  However, Kitchens also is the guy that was incredibly smart designing plays in 2018 to the point where other teams would steal his designs constantly.  That's why he got the head coaching job.  So to hire him as head coach and then strip him of play calling duties would be the stupidest reaction in the universe.  Also, the Ravens are struggling at generating a pass rush, so the Browns offense should put up 30 points next week.

Easy to blame kitchens on the draw play on 4th and 9 and easy to blame him for not running the ball on 1st and goal with all your timeouts. But that play on 4th down where baker threw a pick to end the game, that was all Baker’s fault. 

 

4th down you have to call a pass play, they brought a simple 4 man rush and Baker aborted the pocket almost immediately. He didn’t give his linemen any chance to protect him there. He clearly needed to step up into that pocket. Idk if it’s because he’s been getting hit more this year and he’s scared but that is definitely cause for concern.

[JustinCharge 2,397]

2 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

Easy to blame kitchens on the draw play on 4th and 9 and easy to blame him for not running the ball on 1st and goal with all your timeouts. But that play on 4th down where baker threw a pick to end the game, that was all Baker’s fault. 

 

4th down you have to call a pass play, they brought a simple 4 man rush and Baker aborted the pocket almost immediately. He didn’t give his linemen any chance to protect him there. He clearly needed to step up into that pocket. Idk if it’s because he’s been getting hit more this year and he’s scared but that is definitely cause for concern.

We have seen many good QBs regress permanently with happy feet disease due to lack of protection.  Could happen to Baker for sure.  Rumor has it the Browns are looking to trade for a tackle.  Giving up a 1st rounder in 2020 for a OT is in the realm of possibility.

[Matt Mueller 146]

In disc golf its easier for me to hit a putt that's a medium range than very close but IDK if the kicker Arians arguement really holds water. 

[Kopy 491]

I'm no Carrol basher. I'm glad we have him, and am thankful for everything he's done for us.

But Sunday was definitely a horribly called game.

[zftcg 84]

8 hours ago, Matt Mueller said:

In disc golf its easier for me to hit a putt that's a medium range than very close but IDK if the kicker Arians arguement really holds water. 

In college it can sometimes make sense to move a chip shot FG back a little, since the hashmarks are so wide. But NFL hashes are the width of the goalpost. Bucs took a 5yd penalty and a 2yd kneeldown. That's 21 feet! There is no way that could ever make sense.

[AxeElf 787]

12 hours ago, Matt Mueller said:

In disc golf its easier for me to hit a putt that's a medium range than very close but IDK if the kicker Arians arguement really holds water. 

I've always thought it was silly for teams to take a delay of game on 4th down "to give their punter more room."  Is it really easier to pin a team inside the 20 when you're further away?  I'd like to see someone do a study on this--have 20 punters take 20 punts each from every 5 yards (from say the 50 yard line to the -20 yard line) and see how many times they can kill the ball inside the +20.  It seems more intuitive that closer would be easier.

[IMMensaMind 459]

On 9/22/2019 at 11:35 PM, zftcg said:

This is a tough call IMO. What Arians did at the end of that game -- deliberately taking a delay of game penalty so his kicker could have a longer attempt (which he subsequently missed) may be the single dumbest thing I have ever seen any coach do, ever.

On the other hand, if you're one of those people who favors sustained runs of incompetence, I submit to you Freddie Kitchens' fourth quarter, during which, with the Browns down one score, he:

• Failed to challenge an obvious DPI non-call that would have gotten his team an extra down
• Called a draw play on 4th and 9
• Got the ball back down 7 with 2:45 and all three timeouts, and horribly mismanaged the clock on the Browns final drive, to the point where before they ran their last play they had 33 seconds left and all three timeouts
• Then proceeded to use one of those timeouts before the final play, which ensured that if the Browns failed, they wouldn't be able to get the ball back.
• Upon reaching 1st and goal at the 4 (again, with all three timeouts) did not call a single run for Chubb or pass to OBJ. Instead, two of the four passes were to backup TEs
• Failed to call a QB draw even though the center of the field was wide open on two of those plays.

I'm sure you could probably explain away any one of those individual decisions (well, other than the 4th-and-9 draw). But taken as a whole, they suggest that Kitchens may be overmatched for the job that he's in. If I were a Browns fan I would be very, very nervous.

Agreed. From what I saw, Kitchens is a dope. Nice EEOC hire.

[cavern 70]

16 minutes ago, AxeElf said:

I've always thought it was silly for teams to take a delay of game on 4th down "to give their punter more room."  Is it really easier to pin a team inside the 20 when you're further away?  I'd like to see someone do a study on this--have 20 punters take 20 punts each from every 5 yards (from say the 50 yard line to the -20 yard line) and see how many times they can kill the ball inside the +20.  It seems more intuitive that closer would be easier.

i think it's more along the lines of using all the time clock possible and NOT burning a timeout.  when you are well within a punter's range i don't think the 5 yards matters one way or the other.  it's not easier so much as it's equally difficult so might as well burn the extra couple seconds and save the timeout

[AxeElf 787]

1 minute ago, cavern said:

i think it's more along the lines of using all the time clock possible and NOT burning a timeout.  when you are well within a punter's range i don't think the 5 yards matters one way or the other.  it's not easier so much as it's equally difficult so might as well burn the extra couple seconds and save the timeout

Meh, one second probly isn't going to matter much, but that's not the excuse that's usually given when they are punting from the 40-50 yard line--it's to "give the punter more room."

If they want to say it's to use up that last 1000 milliseconds, then fine--but don't act like it's to make the punting conditions more favorable.

[LoOnAtIk 75]

36 minutes ago, cavern said:

i think it's more along the lines of using all the time clock possible and NOT burning a timeout.  when you are well within a punter's range i don't think the 5 yards matters one way or the other.  it's not easier so much as it's equally difficult so might as well burn the extra couple seconds and save the timeout

So if saving the timeout is so important, then the argument could be made to snap the ball with 1-2 seconds left and still punt it. Is 5 yards worth the 1-2 seconds on the clock?

[zftcg 84]

1 hour ago, IMMensaMind said:

Agreed. From what I saw, Kitchens is a dope. Nice EEOC hire.

Huh? What does the EEOC have to do with anything? Kitchens isn't a minority.

[kilroy69 994]

9 minutes ago, zftcg said:

Huh? What does the EEOC have to do with anything? Kitchens isn't a minority.

You sure? I thought mentally handicapped people counted 

[cavern 70]

27 minutes ago, LoOnAtIk said:

So if saving the timeout is so important, then the argument could be made to snap the ball with 1-2 seconds left and still punt it. Is 5 yards worth the 1-2 seconds on the clock?

if the logic is that it is just as difficult to pin someone from 5 yards back than it is where you are right now, and you DO WANT to burn the clock.  then, yes, i would think it makes sense to burn the 1-2 seconds.  that time could easily end up costing a team the win in the end.

i'm not a punter, but i will liken it to my experience in golf.  if my full swing wedge goes 100 yards, i'm going to do a better job controlling my distance from around that range than i will from about 70 yards or so.

[zftcg 84]

4 minutes ago, kilroy69 said:

You sure? I thought mentally handicapped people counted 

Is that the joke he was making? If so, it went straight over my head.

[AxeElf 787]

7 minutes ago, cavern said:

i'm not a punter, but i will liken it to my experience in golf.  if my full swing wedge goes 100 yards, i'm going to do a better job controlling my distance from around that range than i will from about 70 yards or so.

Well, that's just it--you're an amateur golfer.  I would imagine that a professional golfer is going to be a lot better at gauging less-than-full-swing distances, and most would probably prefer a 70 yard wedge to a 100 yard wedge.

Likewise, it's an NFL punter's JOB to practice killing a punt inside the 20 from whatever distance.  That's why I'd like to see someone do an actual study...  Get pro and college punters to actually demonstrate killing punts inside the 20 from various distances and evaluate the results--is it really easier from 5 yards further away in the close distances, and if so, at what point does that advantage dissipate?

[cavern 70]

Just now, AxeElf said:

Well, that's just it--you're an amateur golfer.  I would imagine that a professional golfer is going to be a lot better at gauging less-than-full-swing distances, and most would probably prefer a 70 yard wedge to a 100 yard wedge.

Likewise, it's an NFL punter's JOB to practice killing a punt inside the 20 from whatever distance.  That's why I'd like to see someone do an actual study...  Get pro and college punters to actually demonstrate killing punts inside the 20 from various distances and evaluate the results--is it really easier from 5 yards further away in the close distances, and if so, at what point does that advantage dissipate?

that's not necessarily the case.  i see lots of pros intentionally leaving a 2nd shot on a par 5 farther back than they COULD HAVE in order to get a preferred distance

[AxeElf 787]

Just now, cavern said:

that's not necessarily the case.  i see lots of pros intentionally leaving a 2nd shot on a par 5 farther back than they COULD HAVE in order to get a preferred distance

Probably not 30 yards though.  But we're just quibbling on distance now.  Our opinions really don't matter; I want to see the study!

[kilroy69 994]

14 minutes ago, zftcg said:

Is that the joke he was making? If so, it went straight over my head.

I mean. I think so. That's kinda how I took it.