I find it hard to not see trans as mental illness...

[Strike 5,185]

46 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

It’s not my opinion. It’s the vast majority of health experts. Just as with climate change there’s always a few that disagree; my usual assumption is that it’s for publicity. 

When Tim posts a generalization such as the above you know he's just making sh*t up again........

[League Champion 1,896]

On 5/3/2023 at 9:00 PM, League Champion said:

 

That didn't age well

[Horseman 2,353]

2 hours ago, The Real timschochet said:

At this point I’m having trouble not seeing anti-trans rants as a mental illness. The obsession you guys have with this is truly disturbing. 

Tu quoque

Or as more popular known, the Tim Kindergarten Fallacy.  

[Fireballer 2,639]

1 hour ago, The Real timschochet said:

It’s not my opinion. It’s the vast majority of health experts. Just as with climate change there’s always a few that disagree; my usual assumption is that it’s for publicity. 

And this is why you’re a joke.  You believe this gobbledygook about trans and don’t even take the time to research.  You continually prove you’re a weak man with waaay too much trust in our institutions.  Trans ideology is born out of WPATH nonsense.  All the “medical experts” are actually a bunch of WPATH disciples or a bunch of political lobbying groups. AMA?  APA?  Do you even know why gender dysphoria removed from being considered a mental illness in clinical texts? Hint…it’s rooted in no science at all.  

 

[Cdub100 3,825]

2 hours ago, Dizkneelande said:

“ 75% of those with gender dysphoria desist, and 30% of transitioners detrans, then 83% of those with gender dysphoria detrans or desist.”

Imagine how many people could be saved from irreversible harm if we gave them proper psychological support instead.

Proper support is the key. 

NOT affirming care. 

[Alias Detective 1,389]

The newly minted Grammy winner, for best new artist, rocked the Crypto.com Arena with her ode to queer sexuality, "Pink Pony Club." The number featured a posse of rodeo clowns and, of course, a giant pink pony as Roan celebrated her appreciation for Los Angeles as a place where the Missouri native felt she could be herself.

The song was a deliberate statement by Roan in the face of recent moves by the Trump administration to restrict LGBTQ+ rights. Only a few hours after being sworn in as president, he signed an order to declare that there are "only two sexes."

[squistion 1,944]

On 2/1/2025 at 1:42 PM, Dizkneelande said:

“ 75% of those with gender dysphoria desist, and 30% of transitioners detrans, then 83% of those with gender dysphoria detrans or desist.”

Imagine how many people could be saved from irreversible harm if we gave them proper psychological support instead.

The poster threw those numbers out but has offered no proof that those statistics are valid. 

[kilroy69 1,215]

Here is a good one. I always thought the AMA was a group of doctors that was looked to as like an American board of doctors that had the publics interest in mind. Turns out I could not have been more wrong. The AMA is just a lobbying group for doctors. They are going to say whatever makes doctors the most money. 

[Fireballer 2,639]

7 minutes ago, kilroy69 said:

Here is a good one. I always thought the AMA was a group of doctors that was looked to as like an American board of doctors that had the publics interest in mind. Turns out I could not have been more wrong. The AMA is just a lobbying group for doctors. They are going to say whatever makes doctors the most money. 

 Bingo. 

[Engorgeous George 2,124]

 

[jerryskids 6,557]

3 hours ago, kilroy69 said:

Here is a good one. I always thought the AMA was a group of doctors that was looked to as like an American board of doctors that had the publics interest in mind. Turns out I could not have been more wrong. The AMA is just a lobbying group for doctors. They are going to say whatever makes doctors the most money. 

Yup.  I've been saying this to @The Real timschochetsince he started posting here, every time his says something like "I'll follow the guidance of the AMA/APA".  Those groups are not medical groups, and not based on any scientific results.  They are lobbying groups.

[EternalShinyAndChrome 3,828]

9 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Yup.  I've been saying this to @The Real timschochetsince he started posting here, every time his says something like "I'll follow the guidance of the AMA/APA".  Those groups are not medical groups, and not based on any scientific results.  They are lobbying groups.

Tim may as well be saying "I'll follow the guidance of the propaganda groups" because that is EXACTLY what they are.  I wish he would just be honest.

[jerryskids 6,557]

11 minutes ago, EternalShinyAndChrome said:

Tim may as well be saying "I'll follow the guidance of the propaganda groups" because that is EXACTLY what they are.  I wish he would just be honest.

Well, to be fair, he also feels the need to follow the MSM.  He wants to have authoritative sources that he feels he can trust.  I don't blame him for that.  I think that for most of our existence, we've trusted such sources.  We had no alternatives.  But now, with the ubiquity of information, we realize that we are often being fed a line of bull.

I think that this has always been the case; that the MSM fed us what they thought we should know.

And with that, a recognition that under this model, the US continues to be the greatest country in the history of the world.

It begs an interesting question:  should we just swallow the blue pill like Tim has and let them continue, or pursue the truth and risk upsetting the apple cart of the NGOs running things?   

[League Champion 1,896]

6 hours ago, squistion said:

The poster threw those numbers out but has offered no proof that those statistics are valid. 

If its not a Mental Illness then what is it? 

[TheNewGirl 1,342]

7 hours ago, squistion said:

The poster threw those numbers out but has offered no proof that those statistics are valid. 

there might be more info here, I didn't read the entire thing: https://www.therecoveryvillage.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria/gender-dysphoria-statistics/

[Sandy Loam 18]

4 hours ago, League Champion said:

If its not a Mental Illness then what is it? 

Biology.

It's a conflicting argument:

Transgenderism is a mental illness.

Transgenderism is a choice.

What is it?

Do people with mental illnesses choose to have mental illnesses? Bipolar? Depression? Schizophrenia? Narcissism? Being a sociopath?

If transgenderism is a product of biology, do we classify it as a mental illness or look at it in terms of your biology identifying you as a male, and the chemicals in their bodies tell them that they are female?

Is that really a mental illness if your biology tells you what gender you are?

I rule out it being a choice, frankly.

But just because one has twigs and berries or girly body parts doesn't mean biology and chemical makeup can't tell you that you belong on the other side. 

I'm not a fan of smashing transgenderism into people's faces, but I do think there needs to be acceptance of those who've known since they were very young that had a chemically different identity than the physiology they were assigned at birth.

 

[RLLD 4,143]

17 hours ago, League Champion said:

If its not a Mental Illness then what is it? 

It is a mental illness.    Ignoring that fact is problem A, which then leads to problem B.....not treating these people properly.

At least Europe has figured this out and is pulling back on the misguided way they have handled these unfortunate people.  The problem for us being that culturally liberals refuse to admit when they are wrong.

[Red White and Blue 81]

13 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Biology.

It's a conflicting argument:

Transgenderism is a mental illness.

Transgenderism is a choice.

What is it?

Do people with mental illnesses choose to have mental illnesses? Bipolar? Depression? Schizophrenia? Narcissism? Being a sociopath?

If transgenderism is a product of biology, do we classify it as a mental illness or look at it in terms of your biology identifying you as a male, and the chemicals in their bodies tell them that they are female?

Is that really a mental illness if your biology tells you what gender you are?

I rule out it being a choice, frankly.

But just because one has twigs and berries or girly body parts doesn't mean biology and chemical makeup can't tell you that you belong on the other side. 

I'm not a fan of smashing transgenderism into people's faces, but I do think there needs to be acceptance of those who've known since they were very young that had a chemically different identity than the physiology they were assigned at birth.

 

Spot on. Unfortunately some folks just want to heap scorn on them for political reasons.

[edjr 6,578]

5 minutes ago, Red White and Blue said:

Spot on. Unfortunately some folks just want to heap scorn on them for political reasons.

I am not registered, I loathe politics and really both sides. I have no affiliation. I have an uncle who has dressed like a woman (mostly for shows) barbara streisand is one of his favorites. He only did it for show and not a lifestyle.

Trans is a mental illness.  

[listen2me 23 1,825]

13 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Biology.

It's a conflicting argument:

Transgenderism is a mental illness.

Transgenderism is a choice.

What is it?

Do people with mental illnesses choose to have mental illnesses? Bipolar? Depression? Schizophrenia? Narcissism? Being a sociopath?

If transgenderism is a product of biology, do we classify it as a mental illness or look at it in terms of your biology identifying you as a male, and the chemicals in their bodies tell them that they are female?

Is that really a mental illness if your biology tells you what gender you are?

I rule out it being a choice, frankly.

But just because one has twigs and berries or girly body parts doesn't mean biology and chemical makeup can't tell you that you belong on the other side. 

I'm not a fan of smashing transgenderism into people's faces, but I do think there needs to be acceptance of those who've known since they were very young that had a chemically different identity than the physiology they were assigned at birth.

 

What % of people who ID as trans actually have biology to back it up?  What would you guess?

[Red White and Blue 81]

3 minutes ago, edjr said:

I am not registered, I loathe politics and really both sides. I have no affiliation. I have an uncle who has dressed like a woman (mostly for shows) barbara streisand is one of his favorites. He only did it for show and not a lifestyle.

Trans is a mental illness.  

Maybe, maybe not, so what? I try not to shiit on people who have mental illnesses. 

[edjr 6,578]

1 minute ago, Red White and Blue said:

Maybe, maybe not, so what? I try not to shiit on people who have mental illnesses. 

they belong in shutter island

[squistion 1,944]

26 minutes ago, edjr said:

I am not registered, I loathe politics and really both sides. I have no affiliation. I have an uncle who has dressed like a woman (mostly for shows) barbara streisand is one of his favorites. He only did it for show and not a lifestyle.

Trans is a mental illness.  

"My uncle is a female impersonator (mostly for shows) but trans is a mental illness"

lol 

[Sandy Loam 18]

25 minutes ago, listen2me 23 said:

What % of people who ID as trans actually have biology to back it up?  What would you guess?

I do know a few trans women, and every one of them have believed they were women since they were very young.

I think bodily chemistry has everything to do with the bulk of transgenderism as well as mental illness, such as bipolar disorder or being a sociopath on the extreme end. 

I'm sure there are plenty of forum members here who suffer from depression or other mental issues, which medication can help control.

But I don't think transgenderism as whole is any more of a mental illness than how each of us identify ourselves genderwise.

Completely different from the paranoid shizophreniac who hears voices in his head and kills and eats his mother. True story. He was found criminal insane and put into the nuthouse, where medication made him as normal as could be and sane enough to have a thoughtful interview with the media. But before he got put away, he went off his meds and killed his mom. 

The trans women I know have it hard, and a lot of the mental illnesses they have were the result of growing up confused, scared and seeing the world as a place in which trans people are despised, as they are here.

Imagine growing up knowing you're different, listening to all the hatred and having to hide who you are. That's a recipe for mental illness right there.

[TheNewGirl 1,342]

2 minutes ago, Sandy Loam said:

 

I think bodily chemistry has everything to do with the bulk of transgenderism as well as mental illness, such as bipolar disorder or being a sociopath on the extreme end. 

 

Just thinking out loud here...

 

Do we have proof that body chemistry and trans are linked? 

I know that there is proof of other mental illnesses and body chemistry; too much of one or not enough of another, etc. they've taken MRIs of schizophrenic brains, brains where you can see what centers are active/underactive. 

Do we have the research and proof that gender dysphoria IS a brain chemistry thing? Just wondering. 

Gender dysphoria is the mental illness; transitioning is the "cure." However, are we taking into account those that desist or detrans? And if transitioning actually improves their life after? Upwards of 70% of them are still depressed, and they have an incredibly high suicide rate; even AFTER transitioning. That doesn't sound like much of a cure, at least in my non-doctoral opinion. 

 

[TBayXXXVII 2,482]

On 2/1/2025 at 5:01 PM, The Real timschochet said:

It’s not my opinion. It’s the vast majority of health experts activists. Just as with climate change activists there’s always a few that disagree; my usual assumption is that it’s for publicity. 

FIFY

[Sandy Loam 18]

15 minutes ago, TheNewGirl said:

Just thinking out loud here...

 

Do we have proof that body chemistry and trans are linked? 

I know that there is proof of other mental illnesses and body chemistry; too much of one or not enough of another, etc. they've taken MRIs of schizophrenic brains, brains where you can see what centers are active/underactive. 

Do we have the research and proof that gender dysphoria IS a brain chemistry thing? Just wondering. 

Gender dysphoria is the mental illness; transitioning is the "cure." However, are we taking into account those that desist or detrans? And if transitioning actually improves their life after? Upwards of 70% of them are still depressed, and they have an incredibly high suicide rate; even AFTER transitioning. That doesn't sound like much of a cure, at least in my non-doctoral opinion. 

 

You're absolutely right about the high percentage of them being despressed and having a high suicide rate, and I wonder how much of that is atributable to what they experience growing up in world of hate and transfobia. Imagine a 10-year-old child hearing what our president has said about trans people. A couple of the trans women I know have been homeless because their parents would not accept them and kicked them out of the house.

One trans woman I know didn't come out until her early 20s and was blessed with growing up in a loving, accepting home. 

I know another couple whose pre-pubescent daughter believed herself to be a boy, and the parents trumpted that on social media, which I found rather digusting because it looked to me like they were more about being apart of something trendy. Let's see how the kid feels in five or more years, mmmm k?

I don't think transgenderism is a choice. The transgender people I know don't like it that certain aspects of their culture are shoving it down people's throats, drawing a lot of negative attention. 

[jerryskids 6,557]

13 hours ago, Sandy Loam said:

Biology.

It's a conflicting argument:

Transgenderism is a mental illness.

Transgenderism is a choice.

What is it?

Do people with mental illnesses choose to have mental illnesses? Bipolar? Depression? Schizophrenia? Narcissism? Being a sociopath?

If transgenderism is a product of biology, do we classify it as a mental illness or look at it in terms of your biology identifying you as a male, and the chemicals in their bodies tell them that they are female?

Is that really a mental illness if your biology tells you what gender you are?

I rule out it being a choice, frankly.

But just because one has twigs and berries or girly body parts doesn't mean biology and chemical makeup can't tell you that you belong on the other side. 

I'm not a fan of smashing transgenderism into people's faces, but I do think there needs to be acceptance of those who've known since they were very young that had a chemically different identity than the physiology they were assigned at birth.

 

Mostly good post, but a few things.

I think you are lumping multiple things into "transgender."  There are a very small number of people who have gender dysphoria.  But there are also others who have autogynephilia (when a man is aroused by thinking of himself as a woman), drag queens like edjr's uncle, and unfortunately, confused kids who are told by peers and "authorities" that they are the other gender.  And of course the men who pretend to be women to get into safe spaces (15% of "women" in prisons are trans women, that's a bit higher than the 1%-ish of the population!).

Sticking with the true gender dysphoria, that is a mental illness, like the other items you listed.  If your mind thinks you are a different gender than your body is, that is a mental illness.  That is independent of if the cause is biological, chemical, etc.  Like the other ones you listed.

The question is what we do about it.  For all of your other items, we have combinations of medicines and therapies to treat them.  But the only "treatment" we have for trans is to... help them trans.  Is that like helping someone be depressed?  Sociopathic?  It seems odd to treat an illness in this manner.  

[WhiteWonder 2,675]

On 2/4/2025 at 11:43 AM, jerryskids said:

Mostly good post, but a few things.

I think you are lumping multiple things into "transgender."  There are a very small number of people who have gender dysphoria.  But there are also others who have autogynephilia (when a man is aroused by thinking of himself as a woman), drag queens like edjr's uncle, and unfortunately, confused kids who are told by peers and "authorities" that they are the other gender.  And of course the men who pretend to be women to get into safe spaces (15% of "women" in prisons are trans women, that's a bit higher than the 1%-ish of the population!).

Sticking with the true gender dysphoria, that is a mental illness, like the other items you listed.  If your mind thinks you are a different gender than your body is, that is a mental illness.  That is independent of if the cause is biological, chemical, etc.  Like the other ones you listed.

The question is what we do about it.  For all of your other items, we have combinations of medicines and therapies to treat them.  But the only "treatment" we have for trans is to... help them trans.  Is that like helping someone be depressed?  Sociopathic?  It seems odd to treat an illness in this manner.  

excellent post.  Oddly I have not commented in this thread.

I would say I view trans as a mental illness.  I think it's odd that dems and libs shouted "trust the science" when it came to masks and vaccines but we somehow don't trust science when it comes to sex and chromosomes. Yes, I understand there is XXY and such, but also as I understand it, a guy who feels he is a trans woman can get breast implants, cut off his peter, grow his hair long, take hormones, dress like a woman etc etc  and his DNA is still going to say he is a male... no?

I never had an issue with gay/lesbian because I think attraction and what you personally find attractive is subjective. I get that super conservative and religious types also view this as mental illness... Most men would want to have a threesome with two women. If they say they don't they are most likely lying... . That fact alone, at least to me, says they must be okay with bisexuality.  Being born male or female is not subjective. 

Do I personally care if someone is "trans"?  No.  As long as it's not hurting anyone, why should I really care?  When I DO care is when we are talking about influencing children or when we are talking about issues like sports where Brendan wants to be Brenda and wants to play on the collegiate women's golf team, taking away a spot from a biological woman. 

I will say one thing I never really considered was the point Jerry made above about how we treat depression and other mental illnesses versus how we treat transgenderism

[The Real timschochet 6,402]

My problem with @jerryskids analysis has always been this: according to everything I have read on this:

1.Gender dysphoria is NOT a mental illness.
2. Gender dysphoria CAUSES mental illness.

3.The best cure to gender dysphoria is a sex operation that changes the sex of the person who has it to the one that he or she is better suited to be. 

These three points, almost universally accepted by medical doctors, psychiatrists, and scientists, directly contradict most of the thinking here. Which is why I have a big problem with most of the thinking here. 

 

 

[League Champion 1,896]

1 minute ago, The Real timschochet said:

Gender dysphoria is NOT a mental illness

Of course it's a mental illness. If you're not sure what you are then just look between your legs. 

There, I fixed it 

[jerryskids 6,557]

14 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

My problem with @jerryskids analysis has always been this: according to everything I have read on this:

1.Gender dysphoria is NOT a mental illness.
2. Gender dysphoria CAUSES mental illness.

3.The best cure to gender dysphoria is a sex operation that changes the sex of the person who has it to the one that he or she is better suited to be. 

These three points, almost universally accepted by medical doctors, psychiatrists, and scientists, directly contradict most of the thinking here. Which is why I have a big problem with most of the thinking here. 

 

 

Please stop with the bolded.  We've been through this before.  Your "almost universally" is based on political, lobbying groups.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness.  Or disorder, if you prefer.  I understand the negative connotation, but if your mind thinks you are a different gender than you are, then that is a mental disorder.

ChatGPT even agrees:

Quote

AI Overview

Learn more

 

Yes, gender dysphoria is considered a mental health condition according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-5). It is defined as a marked incongruence between one's experienced or expressed gender and their assigned sex, resulting in significant distress or impairment in functioning. 

 

It's important to note that gender dysphoria is not a disorder of gender identity itself, but rather a condition that arises from the distress and discomfort experienced due to the incongruence between one's gender identity and assigned sex. 

 

[The Real timschochet 6,402]

3 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

Please stop with the bolded.  We've been through this before.  Your "almost universally" is based on political, lobbying groups.

Gender dysphoria is a mental illness.  Or disorder, if you prefer.  I understand the negative connotation, but if your mind thinks you are a different gender than you are, then that is a mental disorder.

ChatGPT even agrees:

 

The second paragraph you quoted matches exactly what I have read: its a condition that arises from the distress and discomfort- therefore its cured by changing to the correct sex. 

[The Real timschochet 6,402]

In other words Jerry, the mental disorder is not caused by a person thinking he is the wrong sex, it’s caused by a person BEING the wrong sex. That’s the complete opposite of what you’re arguing. 

[Mark Davis 339]

Feeling something is correct when reality is factually different is pretty close to what I'd have given as a layman's example of mental illness.  

[The Real timschochet 6,402]

1 minute ago, Mark Davis said:

Feeling something is correct when reality is factually different is pretty close to what I'd have given as a layman's example of mental illness.  

But that’s part of the problem. You, and many others here, are attempting to ascribe layman’s terms to mental illness and you can’t do it, anymore than you can use layman’s terms to describe quantum physics. 
Mental illness is a very complicated subject. I don’t pretend to understand it. On this subject, as with other subjects that I don’t understand I rely on the experts to tell me. In this day of Trumpian anti-intellectualism trusting experts is not a popular move. But it’s the right move. 

[Fireballer 2,639]

13 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

In other words Jerry, the mental disorder is not caused by a person thinking he is the wrong sex, it’s caused by a person BEING the wrong sex. That’s the complete opposite of what you’re arguing. 

How is someone the wrong sex?

[The Real timschochet 6,402]

5 minutes ago, Mark Davis said:

Feeling something is correct when reality is factually different is pretty close to what I'd have given as a layman's example of mental illness.  

In Hawaii in the early 20th century, farmers dynamited rock structures in order to bring water from one side of several  islands where nothing grew, to the other side, making the sugar plantations rich. At the time this was done, this move was opposed by religious missionaries who argued “if God wanted water to be on that side He would have put it there.” Aren’t you making a similar argument here? If scientists can change what you regard as “reality” why shouldn’t they? 

[jerryskids 6,557]

16 minutes ago, The Real timschochet said:

In other words Jerry, the mental disorder is not caused by a person thinking he is the wrong sex, it’s caused by a person BEING the wrong sex. That’s the complete opposite of what you’re arguing. 

I honestly don't know how to process this.  As an analogy, are you familiar with body integrity identity disorder (BIID)?  ChatGPT:

Quote

Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID) is a mental health condition that can cause people to desire to be blind or have other bodily impairments. BIID is rare and not well studied. 

 

Symptoms of BIID 

• A strong desire to be blind, deaf, or paralyzed
• A sense of sexual arousal related to the desire to lose a limb or sense

Causes of BIID 

• Research suggests that BIID may be related to how the brain develops during childhood

Treatment for BIID 

• There is no evidence-based treatment for BIID
• Some people report using cognitive behavioral therapy or antidepressants
• Some people report that amputation permanently resolves their desire for impairment

Is it a mental illness?  Yes, again from ChatGPT:

Quote

Yes, body integrity identity disorder (BIID) is a mental illness. It's a rare and chronic condition that causes people to have a persistent desire to be disabled. 

 

Symptoms 

• A strong desire to have a limb amputated or paralyzed
• Feeling uncomfortable with being able-bodied
• Feeling "overcomplete" or alienated from a body part
• A sense of inappropriateness about being able-bodied

Causes Abnormal brain development during childhood and A possible neurobiological component. 

 

Treatment Cognitive behavioral therapy, Selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs), and Amputation in some cases. 

 

Other names Body integrity dysphoria, Amputee identity disorder, Xenomelia, and Apotemnophilia (formerly). 

 

Impact

BIID can cause significant distress and decreased quality of life. People with BIID may try to mutilate themselves to achieve their desired disability. 

 

Research

There is a need for more research into BIID, including standardized diagnostic criteria and formal guidelines for treatment. 

By your argument, such people do not have a mental illness, but were born into bodies that had working eyes, or two arms.  The solution therefore is to blind them or cut off a limb, right?  

[The Real timschochet 6,402]

4 minutes ago, Fireballer said:

How is someone the wrong sex?

I don’t know. What I do know is all throughout recorded history we have had a small percentage of people who fall into this category. For thousands of years their only option, other than to hide their thoughts from the public, was to pretend to be the sex they really should have been in the first place- transvestites, cross dressers, etc. Now we have the science to actually deal with this issue properly.