Coronavirus - Doomsday

[Utilit99 4,099]

18 minutes ago, ZeroTolerance said:

Yes, lets all listen to the troll who just parrots whatever he reads on Facebook or Twitter or cable news.

His opinion is basically as good as any opinion out there at this point. You mish-mash things as you want but it's all the same results. You don't know the answers just like everyone else doesn't know. But the numbers do tell a story so far. 

The left does it's best to try to win the next election, while the right works at solutions and the others are just sitting and watching while those who are "working" on this virus all have their opinions and they are often times opposing.

People are going to die from this. Others won't. 60,000 died in the US a couple years back from the seadsonal flu. I didn't see all hell breaking loose or anyone expressing meteoric concern. Do the best we can but we also need to get the economy going again.. Otherwise, life as we know it is fvcked for a really long time. 

Whine all you want and be a know-it-all, but that changes nothing if there is not an understanding to what is important for the future of the US.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

5 minutes ago, Utilit99 said:

His opinion is basically as good as any opinion out there at this point. You mish-mash things as you want but it's all the same results. You don't know the answers just like everyone else doesn't know. But the numbers do tell a story so far. 

The left does it's best to try to win the next election, while the right works at solutions and the others are just sitting and watching while those who are "working" on this virus all have their opinions and they are often times opposing.

People are going to die from this. Others won't. 60,000 died in the US a couple years back from the seadsonal flu. I didn't see all hell breaking loose or anyone expressing meteoric concern. Do the best we can but we also need to get the economy going again.. Otherwise, life as we know it is fvcked for a really long time. 

Whine all you want and be a know-it-all, but that changes nothing if there is not an understanding to what is important for the future of the US.

You are so full of sh!t. The “left” doesn’t care while the “right” is all for the people is total crap. Stop making things political.

[ZeroTolerance 582]

Just now, Utilit99 said:

His opinion is basically as good as any opinion out there at this point. You mish-mash things as you want but it's all the same results. You don't know the answers just like everyone else doesn't know. But the numbers do tell a story so far. 

The left does it's best to try to win the next election, and the others are just sitting and watching while those who are "working" on this virus all have their opinions and they are often times opposing.

People are going to die from this. Others won't. 60,000 died in the US a couple years back from the seadsonal flu. I didn't see all hell breaking loose or anyone expressing meteoric concern. Do the best we can but we also need to get the economy going again.. Otherwise, life as we know it is fvcked for a really long time. 

Whine all you want and be a know it all, but that changes nothing if there is not an understanding to what is important for the future of the US.

The great fallacy, because I have as much right to my opinion as you do, my opinion is therefore as valuable as yours. The opinion of a troll with a second rate argument using third-hand information or the information provided from a healthcare worker directly from actual events and resources. What he has provided is about as good as any opinion I might provide on the safety of nuclear power versus coal or hydroelectric. Nowhere have I provided "answers", I provide information direct from a source. People like Observer, and apparently you, just attack the information because it doesn't fit what you want or choose to believe. Hence why you throw out political affiliation to rebut me, when I haven't taken a political stance of any type, or why Observer just throws random sh*t at the wall like bringing up cancer, or his unsourced statistics of what demographics are affected by this disease. Also why both of you are trying to insinuate that I am arguing for complete disruption of the economy, because it is easier to bait people into agreeing with your side if you can demonize me, whether you actually have a basis for your efforts or not.

[Utilit99 4,099]

4 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

You are so full of sh!t. The “left” doesn’t care while the “right” is all for the people is total crap. Stop making things political.

This was my only comment on what the left is doing about this:

"The left does it's best to try to win the next election"

And I am correct. Because they do nothing else. NOTHING.

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Just now, Utilit99 said:

This was my only comment on what the left is doing about this:

"The left does it's best to try to win the next election"

And I am correct. 

Of course you would think that.

[Strike 3,980]

8 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

You are so full of sh!t. The “left” doesn’t care while the “right” is all for the people is total crap. Stop making things political.

So why has Pelosi been sitting on the new bill to add funds to the PPP that ran out of cash a week ago.  By all accounts that program is a huge success, completely bipartisan, and helping huge numbers of Americans get through being without income.  The Dems are clearly playing politics with it, as they have with every Coronavirus relief bill since this thing started.  I haven't seen anything political on this from the right.

[Utilit99 4,099]

4 minutes ago, ZeroTolerance said:

The great fallacy, because I have as much right to my opinion as you do, my opinion is therefore as valuable as yours. The opinion of a troll with a second rate argument using third-hand information or the information provided from a healthcare worker directly from actual events and resources. What he has provided is about as good as any opinion I might provide on the safety of nuclear power versus coal or hydroelectric. Nowhere have I provided "answers", I provide information direct from a source. People like Observer, and apparently you, just attack the information because it doesn't fit what you want or choose to believe. Hence why you throw out political affiliation to rebut me, when I haven't taken a political stance of any type, or why Observer just throws random sh*t at the wall like bringing up cancer, or his unsourced statistics of what demographics are affected by this disease. Also why both of you are trying to insinuate that I am arguing for complete disruption of the economy, because it is easier to bait people into agreeing with your side if you can demonize me, whether you actually have a basis for your efforts or not.

I didn't mean to attack your opinion/facts or his. I just mean that data manipulation is so common, that it's understood even to those that don't pay attention to it. 

Sometimes it takes years to understand the truth of what happened and the affects of particular decisions, and that is what historians do. We need to live 2-3 months in the future at a time in reality and the virus causing certain deaths is not the only thing on the table for consideration. 

Political affiliations matter a lot in this case. We have seen 4 years of liberals trying their best to oust Trump and couldn't succeed. Now I am hearing from people, including Joe Biden, that Trump is to blame. That, in itself, is evil and has an agenda that is not about solving problems. It's political because they control this shlt to a large degree. 

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Just now, Strike said:

So why has Pelosi been sitting on the new bill to add funds to the PPP that ran out of cash a week ago.  By all accounts that program is a huge success, completely bipartisan, and helping huge numbers of Americans get through being without income.  The Dems are clearly playing politics with it, as they have with every Coronavirus relief bill since this thing started.  I haven't seen anything political on this from the right.

Because she is a ######. Let’s not pretend the right isn’t playing politics too. 

[Strike 3,980]

1 minute ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

Because she is a ######. Let’s not pretend the right isn’t playing politics too. 

I haven't seen it but I'm willing to listen to examples such as the one I cited to support my position.  Didn't you just ask for links from someone else to support theirs?

[Utilit99 4,099]

6 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

Because she is a ######. Let’s not pretend the right isn’t playing politics too. 

That's your stance?

Trump has been trying to be positive and encouraging to get the economy rolling like it needs to be while he is letting Pence run the works on this and the left has been going to the media about how bad Trump is. 

Fvck that. Pelosi is third in line. And she has shlt on every lefty that exists and tells them to keep the pressure on Trump while she airs her late night programs with ice cream buffets.. She's in charge and that party is vile and dangerous.

[ZeroTolerance 582]

5 minutes ago, Utilit99 said:

I didn't mean to attack your opinion/facts or his. I just mean that data manipulation is so common, that it's understood even to those that don't pay attention to it. 

Sometimes it takes years to understand the truth of what happened and the affects of particular decisions, and that is what historians do. We need to live 2-3 months in the future at a time in reality and the virus causing certain deaths is not the only thing on the table for consideration. 

Political affiliations matter a lot in this case. We have seen 4 years of liberals trying their best to oust Trump and couldn't succeed. Now I am hearing from people, including Joe Biden, that Trump is to blame. That, in itself, is evil and has an agenda that is not about solving problems. It's political because they control this shlt to a large degree. 

And I am not coming onto these threads just pulling random data points and screaming that the sky is falling. I am explaining the reality of the current pandemic from experiencing it first hand. Everything I have posted is actual information, first-hand source, of both how COVID is affecting hospitals, what it does to patients, and how this isn't remotely like even the busiest influenza seasons in terms of those impacts. I am not bringing politics into it, criticizing or praising Donald Trump or anyone in Congress or state governors. Whether or not you choose to believe the numbers, what I am bringing to the table are things that are actually happening. Things that could happen in many more places if these steps were not taken at the state or federal level. It doesn't need to be a Walking Dead apocalypse to be a real threat that requires real action.

[jerryskids 5,210]

6 minutes ago, ZeroTolerance said:

The great fallacy, because I have as much right to my opinion as you do, my opinion is therefore as valuable as yours. The opinion of a troll with a second rate argument using third-hand information or the information provided from a healthcare worker directly from actual events and resources. What he has provided is about as good as any opinion I might provide on the safety of nuclear power versus coal or hydroelectric. Nowhere have I provided "answers", I provide information direct from a source. People like Observer, and apparently you, just attack the information because it doesn't fit what you want or choose to believe. Hence why you throw out political affiliation to rebut me, when I haven't taken a political stance of any type, or why Observer just throws random sh*t at the wall like bringing up cancer, or his unsourced statistics of what demographics are affected by this disease. Also why both of you are trying to insinuate that I am arguing for complete disruption of the economy, because it is easier to bait people into agreeing with your side if you can demonize me, whether you actually have a basis for your efforts or not.

First of all, I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we appreciate your efforts during this crisis.  And if anyone disagrees, they can go fock themselves.

That being said, you said earlier (and I paraphrase, please correct me if I'm wrong) that your hospital has less than a full ICU despite multiple allocated.  I believe this is the rule and not the exception.  All of the data I have seen indicates we are well into the descent, for sure in the death data which is more accurate than the case count.  Here is the data from AZ:

http://azdhs.com/

184 deaths in the whole state, including the 5th largest city in the country (Phx/Mesa/Tempe/Scottsdale,Chandler/Glendale/Peoria/etc.).  Look at the death data, we are at the end of the bell curve.  Now, when we relax the quarantines, that probably goes up.  To what?  Another 100?  200?  We haven't seen 200 despite all of the pre-quarantine cases.  At some point we need to give it a shot.  I think it starts 5/1.  Hopefully it is not a disaster. 

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

2 minutes ago, Strike said:

I haven't seen it but I'm willing to listen to examples such as the one I cited to support my position.  Didn't you just ask for links from someone else to support theirs?

Really? Trump’s toying with Governors, especially “Democrat” governors as he said today. I can send you emails from the Trump campaign that are pure propaganda. Let’s not pretend that one side is pure good and the other is pure evil. 

[ZeroTolerance 582]

7 minutes ago, jerryskids said:

First of all, I think I speak for everyone here when I say that we appreciate your efforts during this crisis.  And if anyone disagrees, they can go fock themselves.

That being said, you said earlier (and I paraphrase, please correct me if I'm wrong) that your hospital has less than a full ICU despite multiple allocated.  I believe this is the rule and not the exception.  All of the data I have seen indicates we are well into the descent, for sure in the death data which is more accurate than the case count.  Here is the data from AZ:

http://azdhs.com/

184 deaths in the whole state, including the 5th largest city in the country (Phx/Mesa/Tempe/Scottsdale,Chandler/Glendale/Peoria/etc.).  Look at the death data, we are at the end of the bell curve.  Now, when we relax the quarantines, that probably goes up.  To what?  Another 100?  200?  We haven't seen 200 despite all of the pre-quarantine cases.  At some point we need to give it a shot.  I think it starts 5/1.  Hopefully it is not a disaster. 

Not quite sure what you were citing, but I'll clairfy. We have three adult ICUs, two ICU stepdown units, a rehab unit, and four medical/surgical units. At the height of the pandemic, two of the three ICUs, both stepdown units, rehab, and two medical units were dedicated strictly to COVID positive and under investigation patients. We were using our surgery recovery room and our cath lab as non-COVID inpatient units due to a shortage in available beds. We are slightly improved, but behind other states with large case loads still (we had dropped to 70 inpatients positive 10 days ago and climbed back over 90 this week).

To the point on Arizona, like I was saying, not every part of the country has needed extraordinary measures, and I do think that the measures taken beyond the basics (not holding events like concerts or sports games where thousands of people are in a single building, testing of persons who have traveled to or from areas with known COVID outbreaks, etc) should be decided on a state-by-state basis. Arizona shouldn't be expected to go to the same extremes as New York if there aren't the cases that New York has. 

[Strike 3,980]

5 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

Really? Trump’s toying with Governors, especially “Democrat” governors as he said today. I can send you emails from the Trump campaign that are pure propaganda. Let’s not pretend that one side is pure good and the other is pure evil. 

So your example to counter mine of Pelosi withholding funds for a program that is helping millions of Americans get through this financially is to point to Trump CAMPAIGN e-mails?  Uh, I don't know what to say if you don't see the difference between our two examples so I'll just exit this discussion and take the W. 

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

Just now, Strike said:

So your example to counter mine of Pelosi withholding funds for a program that is helping millions of Americans get through this financially is to point to Trump campaign e-mails?  Uh, I don't know what to say if you don't see the difference between our two examples so I'll just exit this discussion and take the W. 

Oh, Fock off. I will find you plenty tomorrow. I am not wasting my time with your pompous attitude tonight.

[Strike 3,980]

4 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

Oh, Fock off. I will find you plenty tomorrow. I am not wasting my time with your pompous attitude tonight.

Don't worry about it.  As far as who has the "pompous attitude" tonight, I will note you that jumped on a guy to provide links to prove he was/wasn't "talking out of his a$$."  Well, I asked you to support your position for the same reason and look what I got.  Trump CAMPAIGN e-mails that I would bet have an unsubscribe link at the bottom.  Why are you even getting them in the first place?  I've never gotten a campaign e-mail from a candidate in any party in my life.  But if I did I would ASSUME they were propaganda.  Wouldn't that be obvious?

[Patriotsfatboy1 1,432]

12 minutes ago, Strike said:

Don't worry about it.  As far as who has the "pompous attitude" tonight, I will note you that jumped on a guy to provide links to prove he was/wasn't "talking out of his a$$."  Well, I asked you to support your position for the same reason and look what I got.  Trump CAMPAIGN e-mails that I would bet have an unsubscribe link at the bottom.  Why are you even getting them in the first place?  I've never gotten a campaign e-mail from a candidate in any party in my life.  But if I did I would ASSUME they were propaganda.  Wouldn't that be obvious?

I already provided the description from Trump’s presser today. Here is a quick article for you based on a Google search for you and please note that I asked for links based on his made up stats and not his opinion.  I also skipped the Trump “total authority” BS. Totally different, but you keep on with your circle jerk.

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/609565/

Again, you are pompous and wrong, but won’t ever admit it.

[Big Blue 06 195]

My nut job conspiracy theory aunt (36DD, she got implants) is spouting on Facebook about how Bill Gates created this thing or at least played a part so that he could profit from creating a vaccine.  I ignored it as she is generally crazy, but her responses were all of these people agreeing with her.

 

Is this a prevailing theory?  If so, how does to make any sense?

[Strike 3,980]

3 minutes ago, Patriotsfatboy1 said:

I already provided the description from Trump’s presser today. Here is a quick article for you based on a Google search for you and please note that I asked for links based on his made up stats and not his opinion.  I also skipped the Trump “total authority” BS. Totally different, but you keep on with your circle jerk.

https://amp.theatlantic.com/amp/article/609565/

Again, you are pompous and wrong, but won’t ever admit it.

You did a google search for little 'ol ME?  And you found a political opinion hit piece on Trump from a left leaning website?  WOW, that's impressive sleuthing there.  I'll stick with FACTS like Pelosi holding up financial aid for people who need it.  Here's a link for you that might help explain for you why some people don't just jump all over Trump over every little thing he says.  Note how Maher frames things and Crenshaw refutes him with facts and logic:

 

 

 

This is what Trump deals with on a daily basis.  And Maher was mild compared to some of the sh*t questions he gets at his press conferences.  I honestly don't blame him for going off on the media.

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,592]

2 hours ago, Big Blue 06 said:

My nut job conspiracy theory aunt (36DD, she got implants) is spouting on Facebook about how Bill Gates created this thing or at least played a part so that he could profit from creating a vaccine.  I ignored it as she is generally crazy, but her responses were all of these people agreeing with her.

 

Is this a prevailing theory?  If so, how does to make any sense?

the theory is

a) he owns an infectious disease lab in Wuhan

b) he stepped down from Microsoft late last year

c) he is pushing a vaccine that his lab in Wuhan is working on creating

I am not part of the whole conspiracy thing, however the dots connect

 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,660]

20 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

the theory is

a) he owns an infectious disease lab in Wuhan

b) he stepped down from Microsoft late last year

c) he is pushing a vaccine that his lab in Wuhan is working on creating

I am not part of the whole conspiracy thing, however the dots connect

 

Does he actually own or have something to do with a lab in Wuhan? If he doesn’t, it’s a nut job theory. If he does, then questions need answering.  But that doesn’t mean he unleashed a virus. But it does mean he may have some responsibility for what happened. And it also means he does dangerous work with a dishonest, communist regime that  is at odds with the USA. I’d like to know. 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,592]

30 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

Does he actually own or have something to do with a lab in Wuhan? If he doesn’t, it’s a nut job theory. If he does, then questions need answering.  But that doesn’t mean he unleashed a virus. But it does mean he may have some responsibility for what happened. And it also means he does dangerous work with a dishonest, communist regime that  is at odds with the USA. I’d like to know. 

I havent cared to look into it, however we know he works on infectious diseases, thats the fact.  Hes also said that he wants to create a vaccine that will help with population control, also a fact.

who knows

 

[Hardcore troubadour 12,660]

25 minutes ago, RaiderHaters Revenge said:

I havent cared to look into it, however we know he works on infectious diseases, thats the fact.  Hes also said that he wants to create a vaccine that will help with population control, also a fact.

who knows

 

How does a vaccine help with population control? Does it sterilize people? 

[RaiderHaters Revenge 3,592]

8 minutes ago, Hardcore troubadour said:

How does a vaccine help with population control? Does it sterilize people? 

probably

 

[Voltaire 4,564]

11 hours ago, fandandy said:

 

I started with mild symptoms in the first week of March...my most severe ones were about 4 weeks ago where I was struggling to breathe. I'm still getting wiped out just by going for a 30-minute walk outside. Breathing starts getting labored at that point too, but otherwise, I'm fine.

 

I'm so frustrated because I'll be walking along a path seeing people riding their bikes at the pace I was running at 5 weeks ago...it just doesn't feel like it's going away any time soon

 

Just running around in public ... my jaw is on the floor. I can't imagine just how focked this is. Try not to sneeze on someone, a$$holes.

This is so focked, it's unreal.

In non-Hubei non-January, China, these two'd be in the hospital. Period.*

Meanwhile, anyone who walked past these two when they'd been out on one of those strolls the day before landing in the hospital would get locked in their home for two weeks just for being in contact with them. They'd be assigned two senior citizens to take turns being posted outside their apartment, to including sleeping on a cot outside their apartment door, and bring them free food running errands for them. That's no symptoms, not sick, just a big 'maybe' for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Maybe it's harsh but it's why Panzhihua (and most all of China) hasn't had any cases since early February and everybody is outside and stopped worrying a long time ago. I haven't worked in three months, just had another weekend of no pay, but ... fock... the Chinese way was effectrive once they turned on the switch and got off their asses.

*(In Hubei in January, they'd be rejected from the hospital if they showed up after all the hospitals were full, and collapse/die in the middle of the street where they would not make the official coronavirus death tally)

[TimmySmith 2,782]

2 hours ago, Voltaire said:

 

*(In Hubei in January, they'd be rejected from the hospital if they showed up after all the hospitals were full, and collapse/die in the middle of the street where they would not make the official coronavirus death tally)

Interesting how China needs a low tally and the US is focused on an inflated one. There is definitely a war going on. To what end, I don't know. 

[Voltaire 4,564]

35 minutes ago, TimmySmith said:

Interesting how China needs a low tally and the US is focused on an inflated one. There is definitely a war going on. To what end, I don't know. 

Hubei/Wuhan got it's ass kicked. Even at it's very worst in the worst hit part of the US (NYC) there was always a hospital bed, and respirator, and medicines, and professional staff to treat you if you got sick. And the hospitals, government, and private companies went all out to make it so. So the curve was sufficiently flat to treat everyone.

When a doctor looks at someone and says "sorry no hospital beds" or "no test kits" or "No medicine," of if they're wondering if they should take patient A off the ventilator and give it to patient B. That's the nightmare to avoid and that was Wuhan. Thankfully no US doctor ever got to the point to look over his patients and figure out who doesn't get treated and who is left to die. Everyone got care. New York City was close, they were at the warning track before things improved. 

Now that the supplies/equipment are catching up and the danger of running out is (essentially) gone, the question with the unhappy decision becomes how much of an asskicking are you willling to take to the economy to keep people safe vs how much danger to the public health are you willing to tolerate to get the economy moving again?

[Mike Honcho 4,039]

11 hours ago, Utilit99 said:

His opinion is basically as good as any opinion out there at this point. You mish-mash things as you want but it's all the same results. You don't know the answers just like everyone else doesn't know. But the numbers do tell a story so far. 

The left does it's best to try to win the next election, while the right works at solutions and the others are just sitting and watching while those who are "working" on this virus all have their opinions and they are often times opposing.

People are going to die from this. Others won't. 60,000 died in the US a couple years back from the seadsonal flu. I didn't see all hell breaking loose or anyone expressing meteoric concern. Do the best we can but we also need to get the economy going again.. Otherwise, life as we know it is fvcked for a really long time. 

Whine all you want and be a know-it-all, but that changes nothing if there is not an understanding to what is important for the future of the US.

Flu season on average lasts 13 weeks, some years as much as 20.  Corona has killed 40000 people in the US in 6+ weeks so far.   There is a reason you don't hear the same "meteoric concern".  

[ZeroTolerance 582]

1 hour ago, Mike Honcho said:

Flu season on average lasts 13 weeks, some years as much as 20.  Corona has killed 40000 people in the US in 6+ weeks so far.   There is a reason you don't hear the same "meteoric concern".  

And that is with the extreme measures that have been taken across the country, unlike flu season. 

[bandrus1 413]

Its amazing there are still people out there saying this is just the Flu

[Strike 3,980]

3 minutes ago, ZeroTolerance said:

And that is with the extreme measures that have been taken across the country, unlike flu season. 

We have a vaccine for the flu.  This will become at worst the same as the flu once we have a vaccine.

[edjr 5,567]

Can we drop the farce? it's gone on long enough.

[Hawkeye21 1,855]

2 minutes ago, Strike said:

We have a vaccine for the flu.  This will become at worst the same as the flu once we have a vaccine.

It's likely but that's pure speculation at this point.  There are still way too many people that think this is all overblown or a hoax.

[Strike 3,980]

3 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

It's likely but that's pure speculation at this point.  There are still way too many people that think this is all overblown or a hoax.

What does people's misconceptions have to do with the reality that long term this will be no worse than the flu?  And based on my experience going to the store the last week or two it seems most are taking it seriously.  Most people are wearing masks,  except me.

[Hawkeye21 1,855]

1 minute ago, Strike said:

What does people's misconceptions have to do with the reality that long term this will be no worse than the flu?

We assume that long term it will be no worse than the flu.  Right now it is not though, which means people need to take is serious.

[ZeroTolerance 582]

5 minutes ago, Strike said:

We have a vaccine for the flu.  This will become at worst the same as the flu once we have a vaccine.

I don't expect this to be anywhere as crazy next year. Probably still an issue, but not requiring shutting down businesses and overwhelming hospitals. Now if we could just get China to do something about those markets so the world doesn't get anal probed again when someone eats an undercooked bat. 

[Utilit99 4,099]

1 hour ago, Mike Honcho said:

Flu season on average lasts 13 weeks, some years as much as 20.  Corona has killed 40000 people in the US in 6+ weeks so far.   There is a reason you don't hear the same "meteoric concern".  

Gotta love '+' you threw in there.

[Strike 3,980]

34 minutes ago, Hawkeye21 said:

We assume that long term it will be no worse than the flu.  Right now it is not though, which means people need to take is serious.

Of course we need to take it seriously.  Has anyone said not?  Why are you moving the goalposts?  This is the comment I made which led to this tangent:

Quote

We have a vaccine for the flu.  This will become at worst the same as the flu once we have a vaccine.

Where do I suggest we not take it seriously?  I specifically qualify my stance with "once we have a vaccine."  I swear, trying to have a discussion with you is futile.

[Strike 3,980]

29 minutes ago, Utilit99 said:

Gotta love '+' you threw in there.

6 + 7 = 13.  Hmmmm......